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The 90 Minute Roadmap to Commercial Photography

We are going to bring out mr eric almas he comes to us from a trondheim, norway. He actually lives here in the states now he has been working as a commercial photographer for many, many years he's worked with absolut vodka with american airlines and has won just about every industry award you could possibly win and we are going to be able to get to sit with him and learn about the ninety minute roadmap to commercial photography part of the portrait and commercial track here in creative life photo week eric, come on out so excited to have you here. Thank you how are you feeling today? I'm feeling great great good that's what I like to hear take it away we'd love to get thank you so thanks so much, everyone thanks for being here to you and I do want to thank those that's follows me on facebook that said they've been listening and tune into this so it's much, much, much appreciated then I got asked to be a part of creative life. I was thinking much about what to what to share. I feel I ha...

ve so much you know that I have learned in these almost fifteen years now doing advertising photography and I didn't feel like a photo shoot or retouch thing would really throw scratched the surface of what I wanted to share so another thing I'm passionate about this marketing and how us photographers try to break through sort like a plethora of virus off information for the art buyers and the creative directors and this all stand out in that marketplace. So I do get a lot of questions about how do you go from being an assistant into that commercial world and I want to try to answer some of that today for pieces to this lecture I'm going to start showing some pictures your mind so you could get a sense of what I do and what I do commercially uh where and how I work then we'll go into trying to define a bit what agencies are looking for when they seek out photographers and then a third segment will be on defining the two things I find it's important in that quest establishing something that's your own and then pursuing the agencies did that it's um that's your own that's established and then the fourth part will be a little bit on social media. The marketplace is truly changing fast and also talk about marketing social media's a big part of that so the last part will be on social media so it's not going to be a lot of pictures going to be a lot of you talking so I'll run you through some pictures but I don't this is my very, very first advertising job this may be thirteen years back and it was a hand me down from the photographer that I assisted a small budget and the art director said how about eric divinity and that's how I got started um this is my first big assignment that I got after saving enough money to place an ad in what's called a source book and I'll talk about that later but it's essentially a place where photographers paid to advertise in that book it sent out to the creative community and art directors can they look through that and get a sense of who's out there who's doing good work still proud of these pictures there's still a part of my portfolio personal work justice done in arizona more personal work basis done up the california coast it's done for people this is freddy lynn burger that I believe lived in seattle for a while at the time of this plane for arsenal in the u k this is done for spanish tourism great great assignment down about three years ago the economy was going down and they really wanted to bring some attention to what they were doing and lure tourists back and I got to be a part of that campaign same campaign shot in the canary islands this is definitive genentech big by a firm and this is more metaphorical in their quest of finding a cure for cancer. This is done for union pacific part of the amazing this off working with an advertising is thie adventures to get to go on not just taking pictures and having your hobby as a living but also the adventure. And this assignment for a company called hd was truly that it's, the largest hotel group in the world, and we traveled literally around the globe to take pictures for them. This is lila done for a company called marriott boots and jeans. This personal work and I love the parallels between land surveyors and photographers, and I also love the idea that these guys are adventurers to go out into the environment and they sort of divvy up land where there has been no borders before. I also do some editorial work try to do five or six of those a year. This is part of the fascist story shot in brooklyn. Another fashion story. This one was based on the eagles, this song called hotel california you could check out, but you could never leave this also fill, nor a story based on an art heist where this lady steals the painting she drives away, she has the private eye coming to get him get her, she marries her picture. This is some signature pieces of mine done in the obamas shot this in philadelphia and then photographed tomorrow later and put her into the same part of the same siri's welcome back to some of these pictures later on in the lecture um started to be more curious about portraiture and connecting with people in my work this is part of a fashion siri's right tried to work on that and do so and that this takes me until today almost this is about a year ago we traveled to macau to shoot some work for a casino it's an amazing place where we spent ten days captured pretty much every asset for this casino absolut vodka this is about a year ago and to me this was kind of a proud moment as a photographer to get to be a part of the campaign that's maybe the most storied in u s advertising they have done amazing amazing work and to be a part of that campaign and heritage is it's a big moment to me aside, photographer american airlines got mentioned um great american company that came out of bankruptcy even new planes, new logos and they were part of branding that before even they made these planes. So I'll be honest, I've always assumed that those shots of the planes in the sky are just they're just digitally generated is that not the case? We'll show you here in a minute these ones were shot on the ground because the paint job was not even done for any of the pictures and it was kind of fascinating because value in v touch they get to know that the paint has changed in color and we had to redo the paint calling so this was a digital job and I'll show you as I go through what I dont lately here this was done for ram but in a simon for dodge and they bought the first seven pages all the sports illustrated swimsuit issue uh the largest media buy for print that dog had ever done and we've got to be a part of that we'll talk more about this later, but we did a secondary set of pictures for this campaign that was only for the ipad version and there was a beautiful uh just sort of simple nudes or somewhat nudes for that series that was shot in hawaii and in january even back to a wife a vested hotels and resorts this is california landscapes which siege I elements which is becoming a larger and larger part of advertising and here's the answer to your question first we did this digitally and then when the job's paint jobs were done for the plane, it got to fly for two days in a legend with a five day attached to the wing and shoot the plane I can't really share these pictures with you because the library still being edited and put in there but a few pictures say let's show you the perspectives you could get from the back of the plane the last campaign I want to show you before we get into talking about advertising and how to break into this market which is so extraordinary and offered me an amazing amazing both career and life and outlet for my code a creative endeavors this is two salt system is the name of the company uh, it's france ist second largest employer not known here in the u s it's a lot of fun as they have all these concepts like going to the moon, for instance, and I find myself in these cases being a lot more of a problem solver that I am a photographer, so that's it that's me that's what I do, uh, thank you. So what I'm going to do in this destroyed to answer some of those questions about how you break into this market, how you make your hobby into what could be a very amazing living and there's a lot of stuff written about this, the other sp logs there's self help books there's on facebook for me every day, as I like all this different photographers there's ads saying, you know they're going to double your revenue that's all this different tricks on how to get there on how to try to break into market and make money on it, but to me, if it's still these theories down there's only two things that really matters um the first is to have something that's your own something that's unique in the seconds to put that out there in the marketplace I put on this we're going to start at the top and by that I mean ng not sitting there at the bottom looking at what's going on in the industry my favorite when I hear is that photography is dead all right you hear that nobody makes a living on photography you hear that everyone is under bid in the magazines doesn't pay anymore and if you sit in that world the snow where to go then you almost want to give up on your dream of being a photographer because everything is just negative if you look at the top though it's very different we're living in the most visual culture ever this more pictures photography's more appreciated instagram about a year ago a one year old company gasol's for a billion dollars so at the top there's more photography out there than ever to things happens to that year it's exciting because it makes all of us produce better work that threshold I'll get into photography is so low that so many getting to so many get excited about it but we have to do as photographers is to break through all that plethora commercial photographers this plethora of imagery that's out there the baby pictures the family pictures all that stuff that we consume every day through social media and create something that stands out something that make people pause for a little bit and say holy crap that's amazing advertising photography used to be more literal used to be a pure representation of what you wanted to sell let's say there was a pair of jeans they would show the jeans now it's getting way more storytelling a more metaphorical and that's a great place to be if you're a photographer that do that kind of imagery wanted to bring your attention to diesel jeans for instance, for successful living it's nothing to do with the genes anymore has something to do the feeling and emotion by mckinley I could google I'm making me on because I can't show you his pictures but it's quite amazing that he this campaign for wrangler jeans that says of your animals it's nothing to do anymore with the representation with the product is but what you want to associate with the product yeah when you look at his pictures there quite extraordinary and that they're restless there are vulnerable sensitive and you see this people his friends runs through fields and along the roads you just sense that there's an containment there that he want to liberate himself from in those pictures and that's what's so extraordinary right he puts his heart on his sleeve and shoot something that's very beyond representational over those genes are and that's why I get hired that's why wrangler can say your animals and use his pictures there he took pictures that represented a generation almost in the frustration of being boxed in with all the stuff they were not supposed to do and then he do undo that in a way in these pictures by taking the colts often running, lauding, going crazy and that's the essence well, the first thing that I find important and breaking through to advertising photography a rotor that agencies need a visual representation of the product they want to sell that is striking enough to capture the consumer's attention and imagination and beyond that to instigate an emotional response for so many pictures out there and you should just go like this but if we can make people pause for a minute and feel something, then we have something magical they focused way too much I think on a one light a business person oh, I can't really get into it because I don't know this and I don't know that it's all about the pictures if you do amazing pictures that's unique it will break into the advertising organ what we need is pictures our emotional, honest and unique what you need to create it's a unique visual language that permits all your photographs and to get those unique images and further creatives on our fires so then how did he do this? This is the main part of this lecture we're going to break into how we create images that permeates ourselves that's a reflection of who we are and what we stand for and go through step by step how the market those in from the creators I love this quote absolutely love it it was given to me by an instructor at the academy or university when I went there fourteen years ago the more personal you make it more universal it becomes brian mckinley super personal my work is always personal but it's not it's obvious it's quieter it's more soulful I'm drawn to the softer moments let me take you through this process but for me started while I was in school on one side you get an assignment to shoot one thing then you get this assignment issue something completely different now through this time of creating pictures themes start to search mers right? You start to be attracted to the same kind of lightness in kind of color and suddenly all this different things this theme sort of surfacing you do some unconsciously though at least I did I couldn't really figure out why I was drawn to this things by kept being drawn to them and kept shooting these certain things over and over and over again until I got to this one picture which is very very important to me in my career I've been shot it I sat down at the computer and I had this wow moment I realized that everything that I had been seeking in my pictures what's represented in this one photograph the like quality the feeling the mood the person the painterly palette I was like wow this is me and everything I done pretty much since it's been a reflection of there's one photograph at that moment it became conscious to me but I'm johnson all those things that had kind of been photographing and kind of liking not knowing really why I shot it suddenly became conscious and then you're conscious about what you like you could actually pursue it over and over and over and over again and you can create something that comes from here and you can find tune it enough so as you will be attractive to the advertising community so what you need to find it's what makes up your photographic dna but u u s a person wanted project through your pictures brian mckinley bursts that energy all the time me interpreted more contemplated if you find that visual awareness you'll also find your style which people talk about a lot at a slower period in two thousand ten in my commercial career and it was super healthy for me because I started to think about why do I do what I do so to dig deeper what was lacking in my pictures what could be better at than in that pursuit I started looking at in the region paintings and look at that I was never really a very this when I shot these pictures didn't go and say I'm going to photograph this nerve agent myth about this king polar bear in the queen but it's a part of my heritage right? I must have seen it I must have heard it I must have known it and that came forth through the picture so if you guys find what that is for you then you have something special I find there's too much talk online about do this or do that and do this business practice and that by a business practice don't practice business practice taking pictures don't sit in from the computer and think it's gonna happen in photos show go out and practice pictures and video visual awareness knowing what you're drawn to and who you are we'll find something and take pictures of something that's very uniquely yours that's the key that's very starts so did he do this so many people talk about this right find your style find your style gonna tell you in five minutes how we do it there's an immediacy to photography now the digital cameras you shoot it it's right there in front of you will be kind of forget though that the craft of photography is not immediate it's taken a long time to hone it architect seven years before you get license to start doing something like that photographers don't have this horizon my horizon through this lecture is going to two years two years doing this steps I'm confident that you will have something that's yours and you will have a market presence and you will be ready to start looking it's a bold statement that I believe it so I'm going to find our visual and emotional descriptors let's start by looking at magazines if you're old school like me or you have an inspirational folder that you dragged from the internet tons of pictures hundred of them at least so you start with this hundred pictures and you write down what about them that you like I like the color I like the field like the mood now be specific what color is it? Is it vibrant? Is it muted? Is it warm? Is it cool? What is the color who's the person is it a old person with a beard of tons of character they've it smells like tobacco like your grandfather did what is your emotions that's attached to this color to this place to this field this is with the short hair but light color field mood space location person emotion if you write down all this descriptors and they were specific about them he will have your stop we'll be right there on paper right in front of you you will have all the things that you're drawn to but it took me seven years to find it will have that on paper you have to be specific though you can't just say while like blue no, you have to go in there and say what kind of blue visit and vendors that blue happen if you follow color temperature you will find that blue happens early in the morning after before the sun comes up and after the sun goes down blue tone al attiyah happens at night do you like spreckels light like night time? Or do you like when the sun coming up do like flag pictures to have pictures of volume, find what all those descriptors are? And then you go out to build pictures? You should onley those things that's on that list and you'll end up with pictures that's reflective of here. This is one bold statement, but I love it it's chuck close in an interview with andrew zuckerman, photographer and he did this amazing book where he photographed people and interview them. I always thought inspiration is for amateurs the rest of us show up and get to work. If you wait around for the clouds to part of both the lightning to strike you in the brain, you're not going to make an awful lot of work, but if you just go to work, something will occur to you, then something else will occur to you and something else you reject with put you in another direction bold statement no but it's kind of true because we sit there and it's the first of one feeling and you think I'm going to be inspired nothing happens right? Your inspiration is that list if you make that list that says this is who I am you could look at that and say you know what I like girls walking in water because it reminds me of rebirth or it reminds me of something else I liked women wearing a white dress in a beautiful landscape with a soft warm palette like that to be in the early morning light and I wanted to be really quiet I wanted to remind me well then I grew up in norway of those old norwegian paintings that's my style so inspiration look at that list and if that's not enough gonna give you one more tip re read your favorite book if you don't read books ask offense fined one and read it you read it with one goal in mind and that is to create pictures writers are extraordinary at painting visual pictures you have inverts and as you read it you just think about the character in the book and you think about the place they are and you think about your list and did that suddenly comes pictures to mine and you go and create it inspiration is something that you could practice something that comes doing it over and over again it's habitual you don't get inspired by just sitting there looking at other people's work? Yes, they inspire you that second and you say obviously could do something like that, but you have to go to work like chuck close is one of my favorite quotes gold, another plan it's just a wish so I made a plan for you. We have to go to work you we're going to create something that's extraordinary that's a reflective yourself that the advertising agencies want to use that goes above the plethora work out there you have to take pictures you have to create. So I made this plan and we're going to build a body over twelve pictures of a four months I said two years yeah, we're gonna do this three times over two years. I think there's a role block for a lot of people in that they think that I'm inspired now I'm not going to go and take pictures but it's not quite the way it work things got to be nurtured and things have to be put together if the one thing I've learned about advertising photography, they like to see that things are done deliberately even if that's the most casual random moment it has to be created advertisers, they put a lot of thought, you know, into their product into the marketing and what they want to say so if you have one picture than that they like, they're most likely not going to hire you they're going to higher few if they see that repeated over and over and over again so they know that when they hire you, you could reproduce it for them deliberateness is important. We have to be deliberate soul you have to plan pictures if you like random moments s plan them on. Seek them out the first week going to come up with an idea the second week we're going to execute the idea sorry produced the idea. So the second week you find a person if you like to shoot landscapes, you find a place, you find the props, you decide what the lightest when you're going to be their sunrise or sunset, you know where the sun comes up, you know where it goes down and find when the lightest right few in that place is going to take that picture, you produce it. The third week you go and you take the picture the fourth week in a post production and then you overlap it a bit yah, you stagger it so in the middle of this you will do four things every week he will come up with an idea you will produce another executed third and you will do the post production in the fourth seems like a lot of stuff I'll give you a free week in there you're going to three of those over two years. The reason for me saying two years is that it's so immediately have to have a longer perspective on crafting something amazing they can't just say, well, I want to be a photographer and I want to be it now I want to shoot for vanity fair to have a long term perspective my work is not good enough two different for vanity fair now but it's a goal I craft pictures that slowly it's working its way there I'm market to them and slowly that's going to get there to, you know, it's all about marketing in a minute I just saw this amazing, amazing documentary about diana vreeland first photo editor sorry fashion editor in the u s just started that harper's bazaar and ended up in walk she just passed a few years ago and my work is very subtle it's it's quieter and more introverted and I saw this in one of her quotes was don't be boring invents something and I found that to be so inspiring, so in that process of looking at your list, try not to be boy look at the light you're like look at the people you want to photograph the places to feel the flavor and trying to invent something with it right mcgillian invented something amazing just by being fee spirited and crazy all right, my favorite word tenacity I could barely read it so I got to go up here synonymous cia for tenacity, determination, perseverance, strength of purpose tireless nous steadfastness staying power endurance, stamina, firmness patients resolved it's all those things in one word that we need to succeed in an advertising photography business again it comes to patients I think to not expected to happen overnight two years marketing so I don't know if you guys so football yesterday seahawks versus forty miners I'm in seattle playing my team from san francisco in there there's advertising for course, but vice sir a t and t bryson why do we know about this? Cos louis vuitton, gucci every sochi nike if the's cos we're the best at what they did divided they advertise over and over and over and over and over again why do they need to be reminded that coochie is great? I didn't need to be reminded that course is fresh it's because we have a attention span that's so short and very impulsive so we need to be reminded how great these people are. It's called top of mind awareness so then we think we're getting a beer when they think of buying some new clothes we think about these companies what the photographers are not good enough at even though we want to work in advertising or do advertising is doing exactly what they do to us as consumers. If you're going to market ourselves to these agencies, why don't we put our name in their faces all the time? I don't need create top of mind around so who we are and what we do I tried to at my office every month we send out one email every quarter we sent out a postcard we do a specialty mailing once a year. On top of that, we're in a magazine called archive and they do small little booklets that's called adage I want to create top of mind awareness to my clients to the people I wanted before so when they have a project they think of eric all miss yeah, I remember that guy we have ah, specialty mailing, do you d'oh. So now they're doing one for lifestyle that's just that part of my work just did one on retouching. We opened it up and then fold it out all the small little pieces that went into those you could actually see how these pictures come together. You can see how that lion sat on the couch. You could see how that girl touched it. All those parts and pieces to this pictures were in those mailings did that about a year ago in this last year, only pretty much only don't compulsive work which is interesting to me write what you put out there is what you're going to get back so again they go without a plan is just a wish they need a marketing plan right if we are going to reach these people that we want to work for you have to do so in our case two years what they say is seven points of contact it's not my theory is fairly well known in advertising seven points of contact before anyone recognizes your name all right if you want to read someone you got to reach some seven times before they go I know that eric all this guy if you send something out every month not going to be there they're not going to check that email every time I think if you do this over two years maybe will reach him seven times so you're not just going to do this randomly yeah you got to set goals ask yourself where you want to be with your photography and who you want to be shooting for in two years write it down hanging on the wall and all the marketing that you do after has to service does school has to be guided and shaped by them out of the research than you right how did they finally when I work for they're going to two different things it's declined that is appropriate for what we do a lot of my clients comes from health care, travel, hospitality softer, more romantic also mentioned manage affairs over here so we set up two sets of goals were appropriate for who we want to work for we'll talk more about how those match up in a minute when you have those lists gotta purchase a list or creatives editors are pyres, art directors etcetera you could go find them yourself if you want to but it's too much effort our effort is going to go into taking pictures cost a thousand dollars it's expensive but it's ray birth this is how we're going to break into the market by contacting the people that you want to work for so you got to create an email blast template send out e mails is very inexpensive so companies that do this for you and agency access is one agency access it's actually one of those where you could purchase a list from and they have been very generous and got to show some research numbers afterwards and they have been very generous to let us use those for free as we would create an email blast we're going to send a new image out to all the our prize and created actors that's it's on our list of the people that were appropriate for or one of her for seven points of contact you to create a postcard template and then I say a template it's not like oh, in search of picture here sort of thing. You've got to reflect your aesthetic. Yeah, I don't postcards four times a year out of my office for the last, I believe, eight years now, and they barely changed in design. The corners were rounded, I get sick, a rounded corners. I made them square. Except from that they look exactly the same, and this is branding doesn't mean like I'm boring doesn't mean that I can't do different things. It means that when I send a postcard like that, they will recognize it as they look at the pictures. Say, this is a recall. Maciste brooke, we have to think about ourselves as consumers. Yeah, why are some agencies effective and marketing to me? Why don't like a certain brand more than another? Oh, you ask yourself, what have they done to reach me? You should apply that and trying to reach this agencies. We talked about this create your key target list, the magazines and advertising clients that you really want to work for. So this is the research that I just talked about. So agency access is probably the most comprehensive list, the ris at bases, another one but they actually bought at this, and they're now the same company, and they do the u s europe, a nation it's a broad market but they will help you find and reach the people that you that you want to work for if you work in a smaller market and this doesn't really apply forget about the list but to your own research find out who worked at the advertising agencies final who works at the magazines and reach those people the question in this survey wass oh, I have to mention photo shelter they make web sites and they were a big part of this surveys also thank you to put a shelter is more so they sent this out to a lot a lot of people and they got a great response and they ask what is the best way to get noticed by a new client? Thirty eight percent says email twenty two percent says customize your pitch you're doing both area we're finding out who we want to reform who's appropriate for us, your customers saying the people that we're setting our stuff to be doing it by email and I encourage you to do it by postcard same research this is what the photo editors in the art buyers and our director said what makes a good direct mail piece we talked about this year striking images stuff that rises above the surface that's unique that comes from the heart that's a reflection of who we are as people and things that were emotional about don't send out bad photography had to be critical to herself if I'm not quite there yet I'm gonna keep on taking pictures going right down the descriptors what I'm attracted to I'm gonna keep on shooting then you feel is good enough you start sending things out bad photography don't do it now remember I said that one of the things I learned in advertising photography is that they want to see consistency they want to see that things are created and that you could do it over and over again low production quality photos if you want to reach an advertising community, you can't just send random stuff even though beautiful you have to show that they have been crafted that there's a plan to it I think every photojournalist can tell you that they do a lot of research to the themes that they want to photograph, the stories they want to tell and how they do it even if you do capture just moments, you have to find what your perspective is, what you're emotional about this applies to any kind of photography it's not just advertising. This is what they say about getting attention do some really good work that stands out hook maybe the good bog tell me stories we'll talk about that in social media as well, all right, what you think about my graph it's kind of proud so for time here on the left right the classic way of doing things is build a portfolio when you feel it's good enough to start marketing ana debunk that right away seen that consistently from consultants and stuff it's stupid this is how you need to do it it was one mistake I did in my career was to do it like this I wrote to my portfolio I worked on my portfolio I was never good enough for I gotta shoot some more pictures go to shoot some pictures and then I reluctantly started to market if this takes two years and that takes two years or four years out before you start getting any attention from the agency's yeah, but what if you do it like this two years as you start taking these pictures you start sending them out if you have one good one send it out to your list it's not going to do any damage what's going to happen it's going to go to your website and say this guy only have one good picture so what next month they get another one to go back and say well now this guy or girl has two good pictures you know what people love their love discovering new talent they love seeing you develop they love being the first one that's what'll notices you justin bieber anyone? Why do we love him? Because we all discovered him on youtube I saw the documentary they did it from the ground up we're going to do the same right you want entice people to like you social media is everywhere now and I want to do the same in your marketing you gonna build an audience that happens this two years to build a perfect portfolio? Yeah, if you stick to the program twelve pictures for months you know that three times that's thirty six pictures the first twelve maybe they're crap but the last twenty four should be amazing. Follow that list two years you get to hear asked this work matures so does your marketing seven times in two years you know what's going to happen you have proliferated the market then they start knowing who you are and at the same time you've got an amazing portfolio and you have matured your pictures and your marketing at the same time my message just a warrior less about um what's going on that it's tough to get work anything that's exciting is going to be competitive. You want to be a rock star I want to play in a band is going to be competitive. I think anything that's exciting it has to do with creating it's going to be competitive have to just accept that to beat it you have to stand out from the crowds yeah, I'm going to make something that's personal that's the on ly way that you're gonna be able to do so if I try to copy someone else let's say steven klein I love his work on w all the time it's really dark and it's bondage and it's all this sort of movie shit going on, but if I tried to do that stuff it's gonna end up looking like me anyway because I'm not that guy. So you gonna look at that and say sometimes I like dark stuff maybe you could employ it a little bit the color palette, but if you're honest to yourself and use that list, we're gonna how work that end up looking like yourself that's number one number two is to apply that in a solid manner tenacity you can't just expect to have things done for you in a competitive market and something that we all want to be a part of. You have to work hard, I think a recorder now than I ever have it's inspiring because there's so many young people coming out so many talented people, I see it every day on blog's and when island it's a great source of so much amazing work out there, I think if I just think I know I made it, I you know, I got a good place and advertising I honestly think I'll be irrelevant within a year people want to see this stuff if people want to be excited about things if you don't work hard at it, they're not going to make it in advertising tenacity I show you something says to do I remind myself every day what I want to do and accomplish it's important because it comes at a price maybe but you got to find out what's important to you so I really craft something I really made something that's meaningful so I want to work in advertising and if that answer is yes you go all in which it's amazing there's a lot of work this work for everyone I can't quite remember the number, but I read about getti it's like a hundreds and hundreds of billion dollar industry that's advertising its massive huge room for everyone so don't worry about the bottom started the top ask yourself for two agencies want make a list carrot on then it's the marketing the very conscious about marketing yeah, I think that's very failed I wouldn't worry so much about the self help books that says this is how he calls the deal you don't have to be business people but you have to do is be smart about marketing if the phone rings you can talk about that in a minute um you can get help, not worry about the one light a big you know business person way about marketing worry about putting your pictures in front of the people that hire people like us seven times in two years all right, visual content. The change gears a little bit. You gonna sum it all up in the end? The it used to be like this to place an ad. You took a picture and you put it in time magazine, for instance, and on a billboard and that was it that's not how it goes. Any more companies around the picture that's going to drive them to their website, maybe a micro slide that specific to that ad and from there they want entice people to be enveloped into their social media so that they could tell a story and make people connect more to the brands here. So let me take pictures now, like I showed you initially it's not just about that one ad anymore in that one picture it's about that one picture that's going to lead you to the web site that need more stuff that you could sort of be enticed by. And look at this one a leader to social media, it can't just be photographers anymore. I think if you want to succeed in advertising, you had to create visual content, and that is a couple of things it's still pictures it's behind the scenes that tells a story about how it was done and also small snippets that's same story. The same picture. The same visual language that done in motion. So I just told you how big brands are doing it. So what I just said right? A few minutes ago said they had to think the same way. But we send out one marketing piece is goingto take them to our website. That's gonna take us, take our clients into our social media sphere. You have to think about those things up on the social media page that you should have got to create something exciting, how to make people like you got to make people think this is not a bad guy to work with. It's important again, we've got to think like the people that tried to advertise to us. I showed you this picture you early. Almost done for weston. This have all those three aspects to it. Number one is the still photograph. There's, no sound to this but it's it's emotion piece. Very simple. Same visual language, same references down at the same time. It's. Not all that long. If you go to my website, it was too long. But if you go to the web site there's a behind the scenes there too suddenly they don't just do one thing anymore of into several men they have to we don't have to have to it's your choice. You can say I want to be a fine art photographer and everything I talked about so far could apply to galleries yeah, you pick your best galleries to the same sort of thing there create work out a schedule lecture closest he is just extraordinary and then I saw this other interview with them. He charges six figures for his painting and he has the waiting list that's years long. All right, take it from him not for me. Still picture same color palette, same tone just a few different perspectives and you create content that's yours your official language this is expanded a little bit to fit with the market. The market is changing fast really fast show you something. Fortune magazine is not this issue but the issue before youtube changes everything with a billion in nick perman and a growth over fifty percent this year google's video juggernaut is minting money and disrupting the media world right it's not scary it's exciting but it's happening is exciting for photographers. I truly think that we are the ones best suited to take advantage of this. This is from the huffington post said september fourteenth because that's when I pull it off the internet but it's from a few months ago talks about facebook starting to do fifteen second ads on your timeline they're going to charge just this much is a super bowl ad for it because they have six hundred fifty million users every day we're going to do about it exciting there will be a part of it those motions spots I think us as photographers are very well positioned to do more so than I you know those big big production companies for tv I think that's the dinosaur and I gotta watch out the big agencies the really really big production companies I think us that's rule used to working simpler smaller cameras smaller cruise other ones that could come into this space and really make something of it exciting though you guys get so quiet all right um a few more thanks. So you found your visual language over two years you have marketed yourself consistently every month over two years and then the former mix I believe firmly that it will if you do those two things one I give two pieces of advice this is something that my mentor told me similarly anyway, one of the most important things you could do is to actually learn to speak eloquently about your own pictures talk about the process around it and how you execute things they talked about consistency a how agencies like to see that you could do things over and over and over again because they then know they're being assured that then they hire you available to do this again so now what if they call you up and they say he got this amazing project? How would you do it? You know, I just do it, you know? I do two like I always do doesn't instill confidence, does it? If there's another guy they call usually there's three men, you bid on an assignment and the second guy goes, I love this concept, this is amazing. This is kind of what I do, and I get these concepts in the door, I think about how it relates to myself, how I feel about it, but I am in this situation that you want to describe, I bring my own emotions to it, create something that's honest to me, something that has this, like quality alike and ask the people are like, and I'm going to take my aesthetic and applied beautifully to your concept sounds better. Yeah, so you gotta learn to talk eloquently about your pictures and your process. You could talk about how you're being elements and you stylist years have makeup people, how they're great part of your team, who worked with him for years. All this things that make you look solid, all the things that makes it feel like you can be trusted, that their project is so obvious. I feel all the stuff I say it's so obvious but you hear all these stories not even get questions you know what do you do if your creative vision you know it's not the same as the client's creative vision all I can say it's on the commercial photographer I'm honored when clients call me and say, can you apply your vision to my product? I say yes and then I listen listen to what they tried to say, what their purpose is, who they want to try to reach they think a lot about this stuff advertising is not random anymore there's so much research I just got this thing from a t and t saying that all the collect this information about where you are and what stores to go to, I'm like really they can tell through this phone every story go to and they sell that information I opted out feel like I'm being watched too much that all that information goes into target group, so when they come to you got to make sure to listen don't just go ahead and do something else because you're the photographer you can but you won't last long not in this competitive market, so I pride myself on listening to trying to understand who they want to reach and what they want to say a few examples american sorry amtrak came to me actually a beautiful sort of pastel, but they wanted it done photographically, from the layout to the picture, the pillow had changed to a book. Still, though it's the same story I haven't really done much is their idea executed in my vision and my technique spanish tourism, the idea here is that they want someone shopping and the bag, so to look like a flamenco dress, how did he do this? The client wanted barcelona in architecture so they could do two things, show off the architecture and talk about the shopping possibilities always try to think of myself as a problem solver. How can I solve the things that they tried to accomplish? Union pacific final picture I'd say when you create these initial portfolio pieces and you have your list of the things that you're drawn to and you go and shoot those pictures on your own time, you do your own thing. If you want to be a successful commercial photographer, you listen, I think I did this pretty quick leaves more time for questions we have twenty some minutes, so I'm I do this at the school where I studied at the academy or university and I always spoke in saying, I don't have any secrets and I'm here to share it could ask anything you want, do you work for a specific ad agency? It's instinctive but you're on it straight ahead and ask ask your question I just want to make sure you have a mic which you did on dh that do you work for a specific ad agency so somebody could go to that agency and find your artwork? You know, I work for a lot of different agencies. Um I have worked steady with a lot of different agencies but there's not one that I report to work for a broad range of places and agencies s so where can we find work online? Uh, eric almost like home that's where you could find it and this behind the scenes there and you could see how this pictures of being created and built up put this back up so we do have a bunch of questions that are coming in online and I will encourage people it looks like we do have some time for questions, so jump into the chat room and ask we would love to hear what you want to hear from eric. I have a question here from patrick. It seems like a lot of your work is composited images. If so, what percentage and do you also shoot just straight images? Um, good questions so yeah, absolutely I can't give you a percentage I say the parts that goes into my pictures most of the time landscape person and clouds clouds are a big part of my imagery they add so much atmosphere so if I don't have those things, they're perfectly I would add though is it? We get a lot of questions like this? Um let me just talk about that for a minute this seemed to be a sense of two camps, right? One that I think all compositing photography is not photography it's illustrations compositing and it's another camp that says everything goes and I think I'm in the middle I'm a very traditionalist in the way I approached actual capture of it, but if it comes to enhancing the pictures, I'm a big fan you can't think that would come side of the camera, which is a computer that once and zeros is pure photography that's just an average of ones and zeros that's not how you felt when you took the picture it's not maybe how you saw it so the computer did for you so you can't walk around saying that photography is pure, it has to be that way coming into the camera it's stupid sorry for being a little rough, but I'm passionate about it. You have to put your emotions into your work here and that doesn't happen just on location you go then to perfect light how all those things that you want, but then you extend that vision into the post production there's no darker many more we have the computer us, our new school darkroom and there's so much stuff out there that you see all the alterations they didn't in the darkroom on black and white photos and it's the same you do the same now we gotta apply ours his own sensibilities in the post process it's very important very important the aesthetic that you could apply uh afterwards is it's a big part of it now if you're a fine artist if your documentary photographer respect that kraft you don't mess with it too much but you have to have to be allowed to ad what you saw there maneuver there you know, if the scene comes at all neutral and it felt the yellow to you it felt belu got to add that to it it's important? So the second part of that question was what was the second part? How big a percentage and do I shoot natural? Do you shoot just straight? Natural? I do, I do and I've been really more and more intrigued by it. I haven't showed too much all of it on my web site, but I do see portraiture and having practicing on my own just shooting porches and white and I find it really intriguing because there's two important elements to photography to me storytelling and then this a connection between photographer and either the person of the landscape that you're shooting and I call this a reverse memories where you stand in front of a place and you look at it could ask yourself how that makes you feel what does this remind you of and suddenly you get sort of a sense of personal emotion about it and then you apply that to the picture so yes I tried to shoot just roll to talk I mean I am a photographer at heart I started with four by five cameras and learn a craft that way so I do should know the pictures and I'm really intrigued by portraiture and I will do more of that as I continue my career fantastic we have a number of people who are all asking kind of the same general question here and I want to make sure I get everybody we have jesse missioner fox tail we have matt our at what stage do you think an aspiring commercial photographer should begin to look for an agency or for others toe work toe work for you in that regarding ok good question so agents are important but you can't start out thinking, oh, I need an agent to get rick you have to focus on the image making and then you're too busy dealing with clients but you can't do it yourself anymore then you start looking for an agent to think that an age of this just going to propel you into working it's not true it could happen if you're really young and you get picked up by a very established agent, I think climb still then trust that established agent so much that they would help your career along really quickly but there's an agent can change your work, they can only present it so you have to hone your skills and I think it's healthy I mean, I slept my own book around through new york and chicago, and I still kind of do when I have time uh, to show it and present it on your own. You got to get an understanding when you meet this people of what your agents are going to do, you can't just I think that all I get an agent and they're going to do it for me. So you got a seek an agent when you're at the stage in your career or you're too busy to do that stuff yourself, I think it's healthy to have an awareness of what it takes love it another one actually from justin mentioner why is and is something that I actually wanted to ask is wells? I'm piggybacking on this? Why is one style so important isn't being agile and being able to respond to what the client wants? Also important? I ask that because I can't decide what my style is because I've got two different extremes that I love so it's hard to like they can't really I don't know if I could marry them in some way but it's yes and yes if you could do both those things with the same voice you can't for sure and I do further diverse things I do landscapes, people and fashion but I feel they all have the same voice to it so yes he could do different things for sure but it doesn't change the fact that um you have to put your heart into it and it has to reflect who you are and that list I just talked about if that list is included in that then go ahead and shoot whatever you want but you have to relate to it somehow see this is something I'm passionate about and I should have talked about it earlier if you try to shoot someone else's work you will never be successful at it so to think that I'm going to shoot this and that you will only be good at one thing you will only be good at the thing that resonates with you that's where the good pictures are and that's where you will be successful and that's very will stand out you can't just go in pursue something else because you think it's sexy I like sexy too but I don't shoot sexy pictures it's not who I am not here so yes you could try to do everything and I think that will work if you're in a really small market where they care more about sort of getting the pictures done rather than fulfilling your creative issue but in the u s or any larger market in europe it's so specific and if you want to stand out from the clutter we talked about, if you want to rise to the top, it has to be personal there's no other way there's no other way love that. Yeah, um, I have a question here and to you, you were talking about fashion being one of the areas that you work in can you talk a little bit about your idea in prep and how you execute on a, like a fashion editorial? Absolutely all right, so it's the same process as I just described, really? Um so this is a magazine that I've worked with quite a bit, and I'll take you through the process. Um it's called jen looks in los angeles and what they do it's to give you a complete creative freedom, they don't pay a penny. Andi give you one word to keep sort of michael consistent sort of coherency through the photography in the book, and this time it was traveled, so at this time I had, uh I've been looking for a place on manhattan and it felt so dense, right and I ended up getting a place in williamsburg that felt way better to my sentiment was way too contracted the on manhattan can't really see anywhere there everything is so close to so when they come to me and say we want to do something that says travel I try to find what that means to me but I are experienced what have I done what's this travel so for me then being in that sort experience between manhattan and brooklyn I said that's what I want to do I want to take a picture that describe getting away from manhattan and into brooklyn now me running across that bridge is not so interesting right? So you set that in a love story so it starts with something that's personal and in that story and that we were coming across the bridge walking on the streets of brooklyn coming to this bar and meeting a guy so it became like a love story so it starts about something this time a word so you could take that book that I talked about read it find what that story is create that picture and then starts video it start with your words so big skies open place women flow addresses poetic colors this is blue but it's still monochromatic yeah so for me when you saw that first picture that was very warm still has that same quality but just a different color palette white dress long dress, long dress house all those elements that I'm jointed that's how I start I start building a story in my mind this issue is the same or this picture is the same uh jen looks magazine they this time it was a swimsuit they want to go on the beach and she's just a girl in a swimsuit. So I started thinking about what that would be to me and as I mentioned it was based on that song with the eagles yeah, hotel california I think about that song and it's very sort of spiritually and if you google the meaning of it, the so many theories of what this song really mean so in this series of pictures this is the first and the last she comes to this place she dives into this pool which for me then would signify this conscious and she'd go into it we did two underwater pictures and she came up and she was resurrected. So when you get asked to do something that swim, say what what does that mean? How can I relate to water and bikinis and you think water subconscious, how can you get into it? What is that? And that led to the eagle song and suddenly you have a viewpoint and this is kind of a funny story because when I gave these pictures to the magazine I gave him here's the story and here's the layout they re did it and I got so mad at first I was like what that it was important for me to for this story to be told, and then he said, I asked around, I'm so sorry that nobody gets it what I realized then it's doesn't matter if people understand it what's important is that you have a viewpoint that's honest to you, right it's the same thing you make it personal, so if you start with something that you're grounded to something that you want to share and something you want to tell the story about, the pictures become a lot better for it. So that's, where you start start with a viewpoint, something you want to tell something that means something to you, you apply your study to it and then you execute the pictures when it comes to the propping it's all that was part of the question it's all about the story, so it starts with what you wantto say what you feel about travel coming across for me, it wasn't escape, so when I talk to that girl, um, it was about us if you're escaping from doing something, you look over your shoulder what's going there, and I wanted some sort of sense of that moving away from something that she didn't like this didn't quite have this private symbolism but it was about coming to a place that you could check in and never leave. So with that in mind I create a story that help you out with that answer was a long answer beautiful let's take another one from online we have what if you are an established photographer working in a different industry and want to break into the advertising industry what do you do with your past work versus the new work you want to create so let's say you've been making a living is a wedding photographer and you have a full body of work with the huge website what do you do with that work versus the new stuff? Oh so I have to say first off this process that I just told you can be applied to any stage in your career area I do this still it's not like oh this this you can on lee do you can only look at these pictures and established that that list you know once it's really a guy that's going to change right? And I look through my body of work I know exactly at what time I was single when I had girlfriends when I was longing for her father all that stuff even though it's subtle I got to start shooting old men and advertising the reason for that was that I shot old men right I mean, get new personal here but off course theirs there's a longing like you shoot things that you're attracted to and at that time it was the father figure. So the first pictures that I did in advertising what's because that I have this personal connection with older people meant specifically so when I came to a downturn on that, I mentioned and I started ripping this magazines again to find what I wanted to do to improve myself as a photographer. It was that connection with people, so to answer the question, I think you could use this process at any time and did you discard that one body were completely? I don't think so I think if that's honest to you, you could tie that into any sort of body or work. Um, I'm a big believer in parallels to what we have done for for my portfolio start three different bodies of work, best editorial, lifestyle and then the advertising work that's more conceptual so that people don't get all confused thinking that, oh, eric it's this fashion guide, but I also do a lot of soulful landscapes, so you got a percent different versions of yourself if you have that diversity, so I don't know this photographer and I don't know how different you want to go, but I'd say absolutely a probably apply this process at any point and you should you should do shouldn't just say now I got it. You got to continue that process so I guess I did some this whole thing up because I wanted to create sort of a road map through it all and to tie this up with the sort of a red thread I don't want to disregard all the other information out there, but it seems to be a lot of talk about things that dilute sort of the essence of photography and what it takes you have to create something that's honest and if that's one direction or second direction or third, I think it's appropriate to show it some make sense long answer again I love your answers here. I mean, I I could listen to you talk all day long. This is fantastic and we actually have people. One of the questions was can he come back and teach three days so people are loving what? Thank you. Um let's say you got a question, uh, got to go with the connection here. Christian dale says greetings from a fellow norwegians stuck in california. What is your opinion on shooting work that pays versus shooting for your own portfolio? Even if the paid work is not what you want to do in the long term? Well, you should do it, yeah you know, everything is different, right? I can't tell you tell him what a christian should do, but I know what I would do I would go to the client and do it especially I could again I would listen to what they needed to get done and I would do it with my aesthetic and if that offered you, you know, a certain amount of money that could allow you to progress as an artist and put that into marketing and put that into creating the pictures I would do it I don't think you're doing your client of this service if they ask you to take a picture for them as long as you do it with some honesty you don't say I'm just you can't say I'll screw this client, you know? I'm just gonna take a picture for them you got to say that they're willing to give me money and I want to do my best, you know, to to satisfy them to do a picture that's appropriate and has some sort of sense of you in it so I would take that job in no time and then produce pictures for myself. I don't think there's any limit to that, right? I mean, when I started out I shot portrait of instead agents they're great friends today uh so you never know I mean, I could at that time he wasn't like the ideal job but it was something that I did and through that came great things great friendships that lasted almost ten years, so you never know what's going to come out of an assignment like that same thing goes with the client that coal sells for work maybe don't they don't how the budget to do it right? Or maybe it's not the greatest creative but advertisers sorry people in advertising agencies they move around a lot the way that they get to fulfill their creative side it's not working for one agency in one client, you know, for fifteen years they want to work on new stuff too, so they go from client to client to client rocking the different people so between any everyone with respect do that job and do it proudly and then maybe they will be somewhere else a year from now and they'll call you and hire you again. You know, I've got a good story there one of the art directors that I've worked with the longest, uh was a job for hard rock and it was one of my first jobs early in my career and it was one of his first jobs at this agency to and we were both so new at it, so I think we had more tolerance for each other um so we ended up creating this bone there that have lasted that to almost ten years I just had lunch with him the other day and now we're talking about making one and stuff together so it's it's relationship driven and you have to make sure that you know that it's a service industry to you can't just think, oh, I don't want to do that job think about what they will happen later if you take it if you treat them well and they respect you will just serve your career well, I think down the road I think it's from in studio we can keep going for questions online for his long his pre want so I'll go with a simple one from curious so do you did you mark and or register your work? I don't I don't, so you can't imply what remarks to it, but I'm not, so let me see I try to answer that question too, because there's you should protect it and they do send all our pictures to be cooperated and beyond that we don't really do all that much. You can spend so much time policing that and what you should again do is fucking on focusing on crafting pictures if you take it back to where I started if you want to work in advertising can't focus too much on water, marking your pictures and other things you got to distill it down to the essentials here and that's where you got it sort of dig in that's where you're gonna go toe put your energy and this so many distractions out there and I'm a victim of a two I get, you know, suckered into facebook and all that stuff all the time and it's too much, so you've got to find out what's important to you, is it too what a market protective pictures or to create new ones radio spend your energy and man, I didn't have it on the slide that I wanted to talk about it in this process off using social media as a a tool in your marketing if you have to make sure that we distinguish between our social media sort of presence, there's two kinds of people there's, a social media absorbers, and then this is social media creators, and we have to be the ones creating content for a social media and not that wants that absorb it. It's a time suck had to be very conscious about our time spent on facebook. Our time is spent on social media is time spent on creating but putting things out there, um, about creating an audience and not just producing around five management is big, great let's see let's go with, uh, talking about marketing again from curious, so what kind of searchable blood content will help me to get noticed? Aside from images or is that the only thing oh wow you know I don't know much too much about it to be honest um I know this is a friend of mine that those weddings and she did this search optimization safe you google letting photographer san franciscan actually shows up on top it's quite amazing I asked my lead developer you know, if this was was possible but if you google eric almost there's so much stuff there anyway found that it wasn't quite it's not my audience. If you google advertising photographer san francisco um I can't really answer it they decided to leave it alone because it was such an effort that is fantastic perfectly legitimate answer britain hill you've mentioned email and print marketing do you also cold call clients either knew or current? I don't do it that's what I say unless you already have an established relationship don't call them I know this is contrary to a lot of people and it could have talked about this a swell I have focused did you see that little thing I brought up? That was why thirty three percent of female twenty two percent said costume I print so don't if you are that kind of person that could just strike a conversation with anyone do it I had one adage uh way advertising they do these studies to and there was one person there that said she felt fine about people leaving voicemails but for people to call over and over and over again together on the phone to say hi I sent you an email a week ago did you get it? It doesn't work a lot of coaches and stuff says their call people up and say hey, is there anything that I could help you with it's just awkward to me um so no is the answer I think most of the people that I meet would prefer art buyers are directors would be would prefer to be left alone on the phone it's so disruptive um maybe it's my sensibility to so I would like it so I'd say no seven points of contact doesn't have to be called course now if you meet someone at a party they respond to any of the e mails you have established a contact yeah then you should call them up then you really should use that and say, hey, this is eric almost you remember me love to work with you again that was a fantastic experience last time but out of the blue ivan encourage it. Sorry, I'm sure you have other instructors saying the exact opposite but um I have been fairly successful uh in marketing myself and get into a decent place and I have never made a phone call like that I love it so we have about five minutes left so this might be the last question depending on how you answer it but I think it's an important one abby lynn what is your process or order for creating a concept for the client allow I don't really create the concepts when it comes to my own work I think a lot about it I look at my list and I think about what I want to get better at and I try to focus on it find a concept around it like this inspired by a road or a song or whatever it is but when it comes to the clients they usually come to me with an idea what they would execute and at the level that I work at now has usually been through focus groups they have done several options of their campaigns you know they percent three or four to the client and the clients is no to that no to that this one is also let's run this through testing and they do and if they get great response that's the campaign they won with so again it's for me to listen rather than say ah ha got better ideas but I often do if I feel that the image can be stronger somehow is to shoot two versions and it happens all the time where I do one for them and then they're happy and signing off on it I do another version and then you work with great art directors um they often let you do that and encourage it save whatever you know now that they've done this thing and you're happy whatever you could bring to it I was just shooting for western in new york thursday and friday and ask you drive up to location very are gonna shoot the person and this this prop as we drive up I see out the window and there's this like amazing location it's different so I run down there half an hour later the client shows up and I say look look it's amazing and they say it is amazing and they changed it all up so there's room for it but you do it with their approval um I don't I'm a big fan of listening and understanding rather than changing a lot of people a lot of people asking about your post production when you do you do it yourself now do you do all the compositing yourself? Did you do it yourself when you first got started? How what's your what's your post production process like yeah uh so I feel really privileged in that I don't know if you got the guys could I have read there it's going to long answer I don't know if your bed malcolm gladwell I want to start there but he talks about opportunity versus talent in one of his books and too tight back to seattle interest bill gates and the possibilities that he had with the computers at the university's seattle helped him sort of create the knowledge to start microsoft. He wouldn't available to do that, no matter how talented, if it hadn't been for that opportunity. And then I started at the academy of art college. Uh, favor, fairly prolific in that they started the computers right away. No layers, no nothing. So when I graduated, I had a portfolio and fiber prints, but because my stepfather was an engineer, I wanted to take computer, cost us to one every semester in school, and then I was done. I was really proficient. I feel I was one of the first generation of photographers that was completely fluid, but the photo shop tool as an extension of the darker mother than using the physical darkroom, even though I learned both it didn't take me long to sort of switch completely from from the analog dark room to the digital darkroom so vivid, that sort of solidity. Um, I started doing all that we touched myself and by competitors really at the time, davor oh, this nothing is coming, but they've established photographers having other people do it, me and the guys going up at the same time, there's, a photographer with the first one state truly used it as an extension themselves being photographer restructures so I feel part of my luck sort of speaking and being successful in advertising I think what's that I he had that advantage that I could do my own post so not only did my own post but also freelanced for a while I said it's a re toucher before I got my groove on and continue doing my own post till um I didn't really have time to do it anymore but I do now this pretty much every picture that I take I do what I call the comp for I take all the pieces of process them and then I put it all together so that it looks like me and it feels like me as I mentioned, they have to put thie emotion when he felt when he took the picture into the post process no no one's and zero's untouched has to have a personal statement to it and that's that's mine that's again coming from here. So all of this add the scar aside the pieces I'd sort of color palette and then I handed off so two reasons really first of all these tedious right to sit there for five hundred percent to make everything pixel perfect doesn't chase toe change the picture just make all the pieces uh, perfectly seamless and another thing customer service so if I get attached to a picture in the client cecil but they want bluer skies which happens all the time I love him monochromatic field to my picture so often the sky colorist reflected in what's going on um blue skies right and the other one it was yellow skies because the rest was yellow so you stayed within the narrow color palette which I love it's painterly to me so many clients come and says, well, we don't want stormy skies you want lighters, guys the re toucher is not attached to it can say of course it can give you lighters guys and I think it's important I could say you know it's, talk to the director and say, hey, I don't think you should do so you take it it'll atmosphere in the picture and I voice my opinion every time but I never get in the way of it and I think when I did my own post it was I was fighting it I was like, oh no, it shouldn't be it shouldn't be doesn't fit but now I get to give better customer service and that there's someone that's one step removed from the creative process that could say, you know what you guys paid for the party you're welcome to have a blue sky now I pretty much always then revert that picture for me so in my servers there's the final version and then says final underscore portfolio underscored eric, which is my final version love it all right, so we do need one more final final question because it's from your hometown we've got hack on l pick who is asking from trondheim, norway and says what's the best way to get into assisting for the top commercial photographers in the world. All right, I'm going to tell you it's the same door in process as they've just been through I get so many e mails from people that says I want to intern from you before you I never hear anything again I travelled more than two hundred days a year and I packed my bags in san francisco five days ago I went to new york, new york from here from here to seattle no to them a dallas shooting for american I go to new york to norway for my grandma's eightieth I go to namibia for work, I come back to new york I packed a bag for a month not going to reply to an email. What about seven points of contact on? I'll tell you this there's a guy called mop this miller and I know his name because he replies to everything I do on instagram and first I thought it was corny now I think it's smart so if you want to work for someone you got to just say, I want to work for you and be nice about it and say, here I am again, seven points of contact. It zits that simple. I'm not going to remember one email, same thing that there are directors that I tried to email. If they're on the road, they're not going to open it. They're going to see that spam gonna say that's, another one. You just gotta have some tenacity, my favorite word.