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Gut, Head + Heart Alignment with Scott Dadich

Hey everybody, how's it going? I'm Chase Jarvis, welcome to another episode of The Chase Jarvis Live Show, here on Creative Live. This is where I sit down the the world's top creatives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, and unpack actionable insights, with the goal of helping you live your dreams, in career, and hobby, and in that thing called life. My guest today is Scott Dadich. Hello, sir. (upbeat music) We love you. Hello sir, how are you? I got dad itch. Dad itch, yes. How many times have you did said that, a million? Yeah, like your dad has an itch. (laughing) yes. We all have these little, we got these little things to describe our world. You'd be surprised. I bet, I bet. Folks don't always get it, that's alright So, for the folks at home, why don't you pretend that they've never met you before, although I know they're familiar with your work, because of Wired fame. But, describe yourself to the folks at home. Uh, yeah. I have a design background for th...

e last 11 years, I was the editor in chief of Wired. I'm sorry, I was at Wired for 11 years, the editor in chief for four of those. Yeah, the person who was there for the other seven, it like; I want my seven years, dammit. (laughing) Chris Anderson is pounding his fist. Great guy. No, I was actually the creative director for five years, then went off to run digital development at Conde Nast, where I worked with all of the brands, and basically helped them develop digital strategies, starting with the iPad, and then the iPhone, and then into web, and then came back four years ago, as editor in chief. Was it a nice return? Did you like, ride in on the white horse? That was fun. Yeah? That was fun. So many colleagues and friends that I was so excited to come back and work with in the new capacity. Yeah. As an editor, which was really cool. So, did that, and then just earlier this year, have launched my own company with a very dear friend of mine, and we are now Godfrey Dadich Partners, and design, and strategy, and content firm. Nice. It's fun, we're having a blast. So, was there any, was there a bridge that had to be made between Conde Nast and your new thing? Did Wired serve some purpose in there, besides coming back and running around with a bunch of colleagues that you'd had before, and doing some work that's familiar to you, or...? Yeah, it, you know, about 10 or 11 years at that company, you see a lot, you learn a lot, you do a lot, and it felt like, for me, in 2016, getting to work with the presidents, getting to do that issues with him that he guest edited to in November, really felt like a watershed moment for me, and it felt like I had done what I had come to do at Wired, it was sorta like... Mic drop. That was pretty good, I think it's time to hand it over to the next team, and the next leaders there, and for me to go off and do my own thing. So, my friend Patrick and I'd been talking about this for a good while, and it sorta seemed like the right time to go off and chart a new course, and be our own bosses. So, it was a tough decision, but it was really, I feel really good about it. How long have you been out? Well, technically... We're talking about it like it's jail. (laughing) No. In the entrepreneurial world it might feel like that, but, how long you been out? Yeah, I've got a couple more weeks at Wired, and the new company launches on February first. And is that public yet? It is, yes. Okay. Yes, yes. One of the, well, lets talk about that issue, the one that you feel like, the watershed moment, getting to work with the president on a curated, edited issue. Yeah, yeah. What's it like? How did it come together? Yeah A lot of, so the folks at home are listening to this, are, they're kinda in two camps. Where they're all generally media savvy, but there's the people who identify as creatives, and we want to take their vision, and mission of what's possible from a one to a ten. Yep, yep. You know, give them actual insights. And then there's the other cross section of folks that are listening who are curious, and they're trying to go from zero to one, and hearing stories about familiar brands, and people, and then the journeys behind them, that really motivates those people. Totally helpful. So, just for a little context. As you think about those two things, like, what was your experience like working on this episode, and the challenges, the wins, the losses. Yeah, absolutely. Give us the story. So, every year we try and reach out to a Wired hero. Someone who we think is doing remarkable work, in one form or another; creatively, field of science, technology, and in this case, it felt like the right time to go to the White House and ask the president if he would guest edit the issue. It was a real long shot, but we had some friends there, and actually started talking about it at a moment when there was some alignment about what he wanted to talk about at the end of his presidency, and also chart a path forward in Wired that is very much about what the future looks like, and we always try to look around that corner, and have some assessment of how the worlds of science and technology design are going to come together. And for him, that really struck a nerve in terms of the dawning world of artificial intelligence, what that's gonna mean, and it really allowed us to build a series of stories around his particular interests. And so, we got a green light in the summer, and started working with him, and the team at the White House, to actually build a roster, build a series of stories, and line ups that he actually went through and hand approved. And so, we went out and made assignments, photography, illustrators, writers, and our team of editors actually worked through the entire lineup, and then built that issue around his hopes and dreams. And then he and I got to sit down with Joey Eto, and have an hour long conversation about artificial intelligence, and self driving cars, and the ethics of technology. It was one of the most incredible moments of my life. Wow. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty spectacular. What surprised you the most about that experience? Either the experience of making that particular issue, working with the president directly, what was something that was really surprising? You see his sense of humor manifested at moments like the White House correspondents dinner, but he's really funny. Yeah, sharp. And really, really on, and sharp. Which, isn't really surprising, but it's really gratifying when you experience it in real life. The other than that's, again, probably not surprising, you hope and you understand that, how much he's got on his plate, how many issues cross his desk on a daily basis, but for him to be so genuinely studied and interested in aspects of artificial intelligence, in particular, and how that's gonna show up in our lives, he's really into it, and really can geek out on it, and go deep on it. It's not something that he just read a briefing paper on, and wanted to talk about. Yeah, the... I want to share an experience, though. I also have had the good fortune over the last nine months to work directly with the principles of the White House, the POTUS, VP, and FLOTUS, and on a couple different issues. Probably the most of the time with Biden, but I've made it a career of sitting down with people who are the best in the world, you know, Richard Branson sat in that chair, the people who we all, you know, you get a good sense of, like, what they're really like, and the sense of humor that you talk about with the president, and I will confess that I... Humans are humans, and when you're eyeball to eyeball with someone, it's like, we're all the same. Exactly. But, the respect that I gleaned from dealing with those three characters, it's next level. It really is. Just, like, the level... You know, when Joe Biden grabs you by the shoulders and says; Chase, we need you. I'll be like; Fuck it, anything, I'll jump off a bridge, I'll drive through a brick wall. What do you need, Joe, I got you? So articulate, so well studied, so... And to have that time speaking about something like AI. Yeah. That had to just be (explosion noise) Yeah, it was mind blowing. Wow. Yeah. So, do you feel like that closed a chapter, or was it opening the next thing? Did you see where you wanted to go professionally beyond that? It did feel like that latter. Yeah? It did feel, there was a sense of accomplishment there, and pride in what my colleagues and I had been able to accomplish, and the fact that he is a reader of Wired, and likes what we've been doing is really gratifying, but I think in a sense that opened up that next door. Yeah. And the other thing that had sort of clicked for me, I spent most of 2016 working on a television series for Netflix called Abstract, that I created and... I just saw the trailer for, on his phone you guys. It's amazing. It's pretty cool, I worked with two film makers, Morgan Neville, who won the Oscar for 20 Feet From Stardom, and Dave O'Connor, one of the executive producers on a new series, Mars, on National Geographic. Yeah, I can't get my wife, Kate, to stop watching it. I'm like; it's bedtime. Yeah, it's a really beautiful show. Oh, the toggling back and forth between the future and current day, yeah, it's epic. So, Dave, and Morgan, and I, built out the team, and created eight one hour episodes about creativity, and about design. And working, again, that one on one, with some of the worlds greatest designers, architects; Tinker, Hatfield, Nike, Ralph Jeal, Chrysler, Ez Devlin, the stage designer for Beyonce and Kanye. You see their stories emerge and you see that drive, and it was a lesson for me, and thinking about the risks that they had all taken. And being close to them, understanding their process, and watching, and filming with them was a big inspiration to me to take that step myself and think about what would be my next path as a designer, and creator, and film maker, and editor. And it was the moment, it felt like, for me to step out. So, you said something that almost everybody who's been on this show says, inadvertently, at some point, which is; they describe themselves using about six or seven words. You were designer, a storyteller, an editor, in this, in the last ten minutes, you've probably said six or seven of those other things, talk to me about that. I think it's the first time in the history of the world that we can start to think of ourselves in those terms. How do you think about it? I felt, I always felt in school that that was a process that pushed you in to one of those labels, and you had to pick, and you would be defined by that forevermore. I remember thinking; wow, when I get a card that says graphic designer on it, that's it, I'm locked in for life. (laughing) But, I learned very quickly in my first job at Texas monthly, from my editor there, Evan Smith, he taught me how to be a journalist, and how to write, and how to edit. And I realized it activated the same parts of my brain that I could think about problem solving in the same kinds of frameworks, but the outcomes would be different, the product would be different. And I think that's sorta what's happened with me, as an editor at Wired, and now working in film. In long form film, the skillsets and the creative, the neurons that get fired, are the same. It's just that the outcomes are different, and that's really what I enjoy about living in a time like today, that we actually are afforded the liberties to move beyond and into different creative outputs, depending on interest, depending on opportunity, depending on the need of the story itself. Yeah, it's, to me, it's the most exciting time in the history of the world, to be alive and considered, or to be able to consider yourself a career. The gatekeepers are gone, you have access to these crazy tools because of technology, and we can finally escape these monikers of, like, my background is in photography, and I was like; yeah, but, you know, when I write a couple of books, and then when I, you know, then I make a couple of films, and then, this is really the second company I've built, Creative Live, with a hundred talented people go to work there everyday, like, how am I a thing? How did this happen? (laughing) Yeah, how am I a thing. But, at the same time, that keeps, I feel like, that keeps myself and the people I know who identify with this, fresh and invigorated, and somebody who's been on this show, a guy named James Alteger, I don't know if you're familiar with Jame's work, he's a writer, a great guy. No. And an entrepreneur. He referenced some science that said that the human can have sorta like, five projects going. And you've heard of Dunbar's number, where the number of people that you want to, that you can have in your community. Well, this talks about the ideal number of projects being five, and I kinda feel like I have, maybe five, personalities might be a stretch, but identities, and as a creator to be able to bounce and forth, to me that is, it's like a new power. Yeah. That we're all afforded, or have been granted. And the stuff that used to happen without identity, is now, be able to be out in the light. I think that's right. How has your background, doing all of those things, writing, editing, you said, how has that parlayed now into film? The fundamental unit there, for me, was story. That you have a subject with a true tale, and using those tools, using those technologies that even a couple years ago we didn't have available to us to create and envision that person's narrative path, and then designing the experience around it. So, thinking about; well, our budget's going to allow ten days with this individual, how do we translate a whole lifetime of experience into an hour film? I love that challenge. And that was really spurred on by Morgan and Dave, and actually working with our subjects, who we also call co creators of the film, because we needed to illicit how they would design their story, and how they think visually, and what happens when they have creative thought. What do they see, how do they manifest that on the page, and one of them most amazing things about that, they all draw. Every single one, no matter if they're designing a stage show or a sneaker, they all draw. And that tool was really helpful to us in learning to envision how we'd put that together. You know, we could do, use fancy tools, and drones, and great lenses, and amazing cameras, but fundamentally it was about ideas, and putting those stories together in really interesting ways. That's beautiful. I want to know, what other common themes, this is about, in large part, this show is, trying to share information so that people can unlock their own, you know, unlock that, and that's the foundation of Creative Live, as a company, is to help people do that by learning from the world's top experts, so, in just deposing those ideas, what were the things beyond drawing, that were commonalities across all the subjects in abstract? In abstract, yeah. They, interestingly, and I've, I have met designers who don't do what I do, but I see things, I see shapes, and color manipulate themselves, and it may not even be that I'm working on a shape or color problem, I may be constructing a paragraph or working with an editor on a headline, I do sort of see these, what I call design hallucinations. And almost every person in our series encountered something similar that they see things manipulate themselves into a finished state, and then they go and work against those problems and to and manipulate and get this thing out of your head and onto the page. Or in the form of a room design, or a sneaker. And that was a pretty consistent finding throughout. And they go about it in different ways, but it's that mix of travel, and experiences, and working with other creative people that's been really the big driver of getting those things out of the mind and into the world. I got chill when you said that, because that's almost exactly how I, I mean, these guys know it, I've draw. I can't actually communicate without some sorta of a pen. Like, it's painful for me to try and explain something that I'm seeing, whether it's a set build, or whether it's a shot, or a boom move in a moving picture, without being able, I either need to do the thing myself, or draw it so that the people who are in the room can understand it. I'm exactly the same way. And it feel, I fell infinitely constrained if I can't, I feel like a pain, and I see things moving on their own. That's phenomenal, I've never heard someone describe it as accurately as what happens in my brain as you just did. It's kinda scary when you can tap into that, and understand them. I'm gonna close my mouth. (laughing) I literally just recognized that my mouth was open, like. Oh yeah, that. I think I caught onto it, my CFO at my new company, says he speaks spreadsheet, and he feels the same way about an excel spreadsheet, so... Yeah. I understand feeling the constraint of it. Wow. So, can I, this is gonna come out after the series comes out, this particular episode, so I would like to describe what I saw, and then you tell me how, I try and create some visual language through this audio, and there's some visual aspects to it here. But, so, it's a series of one hour shows, but individual creators. It shows process in a way that I think... And you've done it beautifully, and very visually. Thank you But that's a thing that I think is going to be, I'm projecting that that's going to be very powerful because so many people, I call it the black box. People, they see the individual, and then they see the finished piece, but it's this black box of sorta; I don't know. And, you know, social, and collaborative, and widely accessible distributable tools, and things that we have that we didn't have for a long time have made it infinitely easier to understand that process, but was that a goal of the project when you set out? Absolutely. One of the things that we said, and that I wanted to accomplish with the series in particular, was to demystify the world around us. Designers shape just about everything we touch, and see, and experience, whether these chairs or the car we drove here to get to the studio. And that demystifying process was really important to us. We wanted to unravel that, and the core principle of the show is that design is just decision making. Designers are people that put one decision in front of another. Red or blue, the kind of code they're using, or if the curve should go like this, or like that. And to put those in context, and to show those decisions happen in real time, whether through verate, or animation, or a telling back and forth between two people, those details, and those decisions have importance, they matter, and if you can show them, and you will peel back the scales from people's eyes, and they can't help but look at the world in a new way. When you see Ralph, the head of design for Fiat Chrysler, has all these incredible brands that he oversees the look and feel on, of every aspect of the car. From the click and the feel of the knob to the shape of the wheel. He designed the 300, the Chrysler 300. Incredible. What a car in design. To see him articulate that with his team, and have such a huge influence, you now can't literally drive down the street, I can't drive down the street, and see Ralph; oh, Ralph did that, oh, look at that. (laughing) It's incredible. Yeah, I think it's an Eames quote; The details aren't the details, the details are the product. Yes, yes. I think that's so insightful, and so simple at the same time, but so insightful. I love that quote. Phew. The thing is also beautiful. Not just the camera move, but the design of it. I mean, I can see your imprint on there, the color, It's got this beautiful... Is there something that you model off off? What were some other inspirations for the show? There's definitely some Wired DNA in the typography and the way we've used graphics, again, to sort of draw out some of those design hallucinations. If a subject was describing something that she saw, we would try and go, and make a little animation of shape and color to do that. That's definitely a Wired characteristic, and something that we brought through Billy Sorentino, actually, the former creator director of Wired, oversaw the graphics. So, you'll see a bit of that DNA in there. Nice And that made a big difference. But we designed the frame, we designed the show, we designed the narrative structures, and so it was very important to us that we adhered to the characteristics that we set out when we created the show document. We actually designed a book that we gave to all our directors, and then our directors of photography, so that they understood that every aspect needed to be considered. We would want to collaborate with them to create those frames, and create those camera moves and sequences, but that it did have to be considered. Wow, so, like, let's just get some logistics out now. Where's it gonna be, how do people find it. Like, what's the, is there a, you got a URL for the page, give us a little context around it so people... So the easiest thing ever, you've got yourself Netflix, you turn it on, and search for Abstract: The Art of Design. We'll be in 190 countries, 22 different languages. It's a global release, all on February 10th. Wow. So, it will be hard to miss. (laughing) Yes, I love that. Congratulations, that's huge. Thank you so much. Let's talk a little bit theoretical for a second. Absolutely. On creativity, around entrepreneurship, around the way we, humans package ideas. They put like things together. I want to know, when you think about creativity, I say creativity with a small C, I mean the actual crafts of design, of photography, of film making, and when I say creativity with a large C, when I juxtapose those things, what comes to mind for you? I do go back to that moment of decision making. Of making those decisions that are the tiny, the details, the discovery details, the particular grade of a color move in a photograph, or motion picture, all the way to the kerning pairs between two letters. I find that those little things end up empowering the really big moments, because they just accrue. And you're able to assert yourself, or assert a team's effort, and see give and take, or see difference and commonality between those moments where you and I can disagree about how far apart those two letters need to exist, but there's a discovery when we have that conversation, and those build up over time, and they allow for bigger things to happen, because trust emerges, because people talk to one another, there's communication, and I've found that I learn the most when I'm in those kind of scenarios, when I'm working with people, again, over the structure of a paragraph, or a color way, and I find that sort of neuro framework gets activated, that I feel something. A coach of mine tells me, and has taught me to pay attention to those feelings. When I'm doing that, I feel a certain way in my body that is different than when I'm slumped in a meeting, or going through that spreadsheet. And so, it has something to do with they way that I'm built as a creative person, but learning that tool set is also really important, and enabling in the creative process, at least for me. Let's talk to the zero to one folks, the folks who have not identified as a creative, and I've spent, I guess my last few years, trying to help those folks understand that there's a creator in all of us. When you look across the, the plains... (laughing) Paint a picture here, when you just, when you look out there in the world, and you see folks that identify, and people who don't identify as creative or not, do you have a message for either group, or specifically interested in helping inspire the folks who were told their whole life they weren't creative, and they're trying to break out and find something? I would pull out a lesson from the show, and drawing. I think there's something really liberating. And it doesn't have to be good, it doesn't have to be representative. It can be purely abstract doodling, that to a person, every person, every one of these subjects, had activated their creative output, by putting some instrument that had ink or graphite in it, against a piece of paper, and that exploratory process, that there's something that happens in our mind that expands creative possibility when you doodle. And, it's incredible to unlock that. I think the bar has been low, it costs nothing to do, and it certainly is a way to explore what happens inside of you when you do start that process. Yeah. It's, I think the idea of process, the word that you used, the fact that it's not a destination, that it's a habit. That's exactly right. Just like, letting it out. Christoph Neimann talks a lot about this. That it's not, there aren't these moments of creative inspiration, there are no lightening bolts that come down, it's practice. Yeah. It's like a sport, you have to go out and rehearse, and go to practice, and do it a lot. And it's something you must continue to improve on. He talks about a creative bar fight between the ten year ago version of himself, and the version today, and he said; I'm confident that I'd kick my own ass. (laughing) It's fun to think about that, that it is a muscle, that in some sense, that you can strengthen. Let's talk about advice. Some people are weary to give it, Other people's, other people have a hard time receiving it. That's one of the things that I want this episode, you've done so much, you've built so many things, you, at the same time, I hear sort of this rebirth, and a bunch of new energy coming into your world because of this show, and your new business. Advice to people who are following in your footsteps, or thinking about it. Pay attention to the feelings that you have inside of you. I was contemplating this choice, to chart out on my own this year, and my wife... Leaving a big post. Leaving a big post, my dream job in every sense. Getting that job felt like that was it. I could do that job for the rest of my life, but I discovered over those years that I do have a lot more in me that I want to go out and create, and I like building teams, and I like building things out of nothing, and paying attention to that feeling inside, and all credit to my wife, she gave me Elle Luna's terrific book, That We Should and Must. Elle's gonna be here in like an hour, 90 minutes. I have to thank her. (laughing) I have to thank her. She's incredible, she's been on this show before. I love her. This book gave me the courage to think about my must, and paying attention to that feeling about what I needed to do, and what I had to do, was really important. If there's any advice I can offer, small in comparison to what Elle has done, but paying attention to that feeling inside is really crucial. And I look back at the moments when I stepped out of that comfort zone, and felt that excitement again, and every single one of them lead me to great things because of the growth, because of the people I met, the places I've been able to travel and see, and have conversations like this. And every single time I've felt like that, it was a big leap forward for me. So, it's really gratifying to be able to recognize that and the more people can pay attention to that, the better. Isn't it sorta weird? Like you can, it's, I don't know. I think it falls under the category of self awareness, because it is a process, and I've learned to recognize it. I talk about it as my best quality, is instinct. And it's not about seeing, I think people think about it like; instinct's in the market, and you know, oh, you saw that online creative education was going to be interesting six years ago. No, no, it was like, it's recognizing something's changing in me that says, that's pulling me to do one thing. I feel resistance, I feel these other things, conflict. Even just confessionally, I've confessed a lot on this show, but, confessionally it was very hard. I was bound for professional soccer, and then when I decided that that wasn't it, I, out of fear, I turned to the world and said; oh, what should I do? And they said; if you're smart and hardworking, you should be a doctor, or a lawyer, and that was, I spent, I don't know, $100,000, and several years of my life down a path that was everybody else's path, and all of that was in radical violation to what was going on in here. Yep So, when I'm using the word intuition, is that, in that example, is that what you mean by listening to your feelings in here, or is there some different permutation, or is intuition smaller than your feelings, or is it bigger, talk to me a little bit more about that. You say the word intuition, I think about that gut, heart, head alignment. When all three of those are telling you the same thing. To me that sort of speaks to that moment of intuition, where I can feel the direction, the purpose of it, the alignment of it. That feels different than when one of those isn't there. Your head tells you something, but your heart, you want to go eat the ice cream. It's like; I really know that I shouldn't, but... I pretty much want to eat the ice cream right now, that sounds good. (laughing) Pretty much, pretty much. You can divorce intuition from the ice cream. Thank you. Phew. That's sort of the way I think about it, though. I think that's some fantastic advice. How about habits, I'm interested in, you know, there's some common habits you sited amongst the people in the show, of putting pen or pencil to paper. Either and/or both, are there habits that the, that you've noticed across all the subjects of the series, and/or yours personally? Like, what are some habits you feel have been successful, or helped you be successful? Certainly in the series, all of these folks have strong pursuits and skills in things that are not design. Whether it's skateboarding, or playing the piano, or violin, that they're all passionate about creating in a venue that's not what their work habit is. For me, I love to read, I love science fiction, and I find that I can sorta spark up and get those neurons firing when I read great science fiction. Three science fiction books? Seven Eves, Neal Stevenson, last year. It came out two years ago, I read that last summer though. It blew my mind. I'm reading Twenty Three Twelve right now, Kim Stanley Robinson, incredible. And The Martian, just awesome, awesome book. Just some nuggets there, in the middle of the show for your all. (laughing) So, it's something else, outside of the passion that you can turn to, to exercise. Got it, that's very helpful. Don't dos. Don't dos. I think that sort of reflexive idea that you have to go sit in front of the computer, or whatever your work tool machine is to go crack the problem, I'm just gonna go in and solve this, and get it done. I actually find that going out to do something else, whether it is read, or go cycling, or find some way to connect with the earth in a really, like a hike, be out, smell the air, I feel a lot better, and find solutions to creative problems a lot more quickly. That has been almost universal on this show. When I ask people, it's like; get away, stop doing the thing that you're blocked at, you're just burning cycles, and you're probably gonna come up with a shitty solution. (laughing) Without question. And if you're tired enough, you'll call it done, versus the opposite, if you've got energy, and you get some clarity from being away. Or even overwork it, the other risk of just pushing past the solution. Yeah, three iterations ago. You had it already, like, call it a day, and go for a hike. God, that's such good advice. You could save some serious pain by listening to this man. (laughing) So what other projects are you working on? I'm excited to hear, and we want to focus on the Netflix series, I think that's obviously a critical piece of what we talked about here. Got some other stuff in the works? There's some things you can talk about, presumably, there's some things you can't. Yeah, the big, the big design project for the year is designing our agency, and designing the structure, the home of it. We're actually looking for a new office right now. We've got 35 folks working for us. What?! And we're looking to grow that this year. 35 people already? Exactly, exactly. So, Patrick's practice was Godfrey Q, and he built that over the past 14 years. Great advertising strategy, brand architecture firm, so that works, so I'm joining forces with him, and that team, and we're adding talent, and looking for new designers, and film makers, and producers. What hood do you want to be in? I think Jackson Square sounds pretty cool. We've been looking over there, but, fairly central. Something around Market Street. But, we want some creative space, but some brick, and a big, open ceiling like this, and some space where we can grow. So, designing the space, designing the work that we're going to do, and designing the relationships between ourselves and our potential clients, our existing clients, the places that we want to go, so there's a lot to do. Yeah (laughing) And, it really doesn't feel like work. I was just gonna say. I can't believe that people pay me to do this. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, starting to build the foundation of a thing. So you casually interjected in there, The intersection of should and must, the book by Elle Luna, any other books that you feel have cracked open some stuff, besides the science fiction that we were talking about? You know, I read, this is dry, but, I forget, it's the HBR on managing people. That was a great, that is a great book for any young leader, anyone looking to grow. I've given that to many colleagues, I had it given to me, and it's a really terrific tool book, it's very practical. But, in terms of creative leadership, Ed Catmull's book is without peer. Yeah, former chief or Disney, right? Disney, and? He's at Disney now, but cofounder of Pixar. Pixar, that's right. And was at Lucas Film before that. And the name of the book is escaping me right now, but holy shit, it is a great book. Ed is an amazing, amazing man. And they way that he talks about creative decision making and working with big groups of creative folks to achieve spectacular results, like Toy Story, and Finding Dory, and A Bug's Life, telling those stories of how those things came into the world over a four year process, thinking about from the start of a story, to going to the theater. I mean, four years to affect every minuscule decision that he and John Lasseter built that company around. It's just, it's breathtaking. So, I can't recommend that book enough. Solid recommendation Imagination Inc? I'm gonna screw it up. Creativity Ink. Creativity Inc, yes! Thank you, Thank you. We're in this together. I dropped it like I had it the whole time, but I was processing, when you were doing this I was going through my bookshelf. I'm like; I can see it, I can see it. You said the Inc. and I got us there. Parting words, anything that you'd like to share with some folks who are, like, just curious, and passionate, and hungry, and of all ranges and walks of life. You've clearly got some great stuff in your backpack of all that you've accomplished. I'd say be willing to learn. Go in humble, and understand that just about everyone has something to teach you. And you put in the hours, and you trust in your fellow colleagues, and creatives, that only good things can happen. That exchange of ideas is everything. It's so invigorating. Everything that, good that has happened to me has come through that kind of process. Incredible. I have nothing else to add, that was awesome. Thank you so much for your time, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Real pleasure. Yeah, and shout out to Print Magazine, for helping get us together. Absolutely. I'm looking forward to that coming out, and congratulations on the series. I'm like, I saw the trailer, you guys. It is fresh, it's beautiful. Congrats on it. Thanks so much. Alright. (electro music)