Lessons

Lesson Info

Scouting and Permits for Pre-Production

Really, now we get to dive into the fun part, which is we're going to build a mock assignment and talk about everything from the methodology to philosophy to the how to the pre production to post production, really it step by step every part of the process in terms of creating a still in motion shoot on location, I'm going to use a lot of creative liberty in terms of the way we build out this shoot, because the reality is that's part of the game that you always need to be opportunistic, and you always need to be flexible, invaluable when you're working with clients when you're on a location, because despite what you want to have happen despite your preconceived idea of what's going to happen, it never quite plays out that way. And so for me, it it all really starts with the first phone call whether it's I'm pitching a project to a client, which is probably forty percent of what I do. I have an idea that I really want to shoot, and then I go out and sell it to somebody it's an idea that...

I'm passionate about, a passionate about enough that I'm willing to invest time, innit? Or the other sixty plus percent of the time the telephone rings and it's a client saying, hey, we're interested in having you do something for us but the instant the telephone rings you're on like the bottom line is that's part of being a photographer in a filmmaker it's not just how creative you are and can you manage production it's can you be an entrepreneur can you actually be you have to be a bit of a sales person you have to be a bit of an art director a bit of a photographer a bit of a filmmaker a bit of a post production artist that's all part of our job you need to sort of adapt you need to connect the dots you need to be engaging when you're on the telephone and often times I would say that over half of the work that I do is direct to client meaning there's no agency between myself and the client and I really love that style of work when it's directed client you're oftentimes talking to the people you know with with small businesses you're dealing with the owner of the ceo of that business in their marketing team and so you're hearing the real passion when you get that ceo on the telephone and he's explaining his brand to you you really get to hear their love for what they've created you get to ask and I love the first phone call because it's that moment that you can be the most naive and ask the most revealing you know idiotic questions but it's okay it's part of the discovery process and and all always forward that when I'm on the telephone it's the discovery phone call all actually say, hey, you know, I'm going to ask some questions that I know it's obvious to you guys you guys are the pros this is your business, but I just need to understand from like the ground level up how your company works, what your product is what story are we trying to tell it's called discovery and there's discovery phone calls are a lot of fun, so the mock assignment that we're going to build is actually around conveniently one of the athletes that was in the uae film and that's danger axon so I'm going to pretend this phone call didn't actually happen, but I've done enough work for jackson kayak that I can't tell you how these phone calls play outs we're going to go to the computer so the phone rings and it's eric jackson you know the namesake of the company and eric is on the other line and he says, hey, corey, you know we're we've already dominated the whitewater business we now make more whitewater kayaks than any other manufacturer on the planet we need to we're expanding our business, we're going into the recreational fishing world with kayaks, we're launching our flagship product which is called the cuda now so instantly a flag goes up in my head and I think I don't know shit about kai about kayak fishing like I'm not a fisherman, I don't know that much about kayaking to begin with, but now when you had that layer of kayak fishing, this is a real niche, and when you're talking about a pretty niche product, and so I started asking all of the questions to eric that are important. And what is this kuda cost like? Is this a thousand dollar boat? Is this a five hundred dollar boat? Is this a fifteen hundred dollars book? Where is this going to sell? How many units of this boat are going to sell? And I'm just trying to really understand the des mcgrath, where are these boats going to sell? Is this an ari I style boat? Is this a kayak specialty store boat? Is this a cabela's style boat where these units going to appear? So this is the at that opportunity to really ask every conceivable question around this product. Now, in this case, I already know jackson kayak. They're family friends have spent a lot of time with him in tennessee, where they're based in sparta, tennessee, but I'm still going. I want to make sure and while I'm on this telephone call. You know I'm an advocate of I use a headset just the conventional white, you know, iphone headset and I have a pad of paper out if you can type fast that's great, I'm scribbling down notes constantly and I always when I start new notes with the client all right at the top of the page I'll put the date and who I'm talking to you on that phone call, so on this phone call it's it's, eric jackson, their ceo and owner of the company. So eric jackson, the date the time that we're on the telephone and then I just start scribbling notes because later, you know, while he's giving me all of this information, there might be some information that I want to go back to later that's it's it's very relevant when we get deeper into the production and it's super embarrassing if you have to ask a question twice you know you're wasting their time is the bottom line. These are busy clients, so the set up is they want to profile this new cuda boat. It turns out they're going to roll out a whole line of of fishing kayak fishing boats so this is for those that aren't kayakers is very different than a whitewater kayak whitewater kayak there very slim there's a you sit inside the boat and a spray skirt goes around your waist these air sit on top kayaks obviously one of them is like a double sit on on top kayak apparently these air designed in such a way that you can stand on top of the kayak so you know, the fishing stance is a lot better for folks when they're standing so you can actually stand and use almost like a paddleboard paddle if you want with particularly the cuda and so one of the things I always ask I'm talking to the client the first time is can you send me every bit of literature that you have on this particular product? No, send me your the tech specs for exact shapes and dimensions send me whatever marketing materials are there any video is already out there have you already done still photo shoots? You know, where is it? On the website and then of course at the core I want to ask that question who is like what's the story like how do you envision us telling this story? Is there a complex, layered message or do you just want us to create an experience? And the other question that I'm going to ask, of course is who's the model like who are we going to use? Do you want it in my mind? I want like a crusty old guy that's like a real fisherman that's out there three hundred days a year fishing off of his cuda and again I'm naive I don't even know if like you use this in the ocean or do you use this on the lake or do you use this on a river? I don't know but this first phone call is my opportunity to ask all of those questions now we're going to we're going to exercise some suspension of disbelief because we're going to be shooting on beaver lake just outside of seattle right outside the window here and this lake as you can see I mean there's houses on the other side there's you know, folks swimming in the morning there's people with their docks they're barbecuing for the first time I saw floating six by six dot with like an electric motor and they're actually floating through beaver like barbecuing so you know, I'm not sure this is exactly what the cuda is designed for but this is our backdrop and we're going to create a cz much opportunities possible visually so so eric sends me all of this information it turns out they're prolific company in terms of publishing youtube videos so I watch a bunch of fishing videos that core fishing videos where these guys are out there you know, filming and shooting fishing um I realized immediately because I can relate to it from the climbing world it's it's a core audience I mean if you're a kayak fisherman you are in like a very vertical well column of the industry you know you are you are very unique niche in the industry but eric says to me, hey corey, we don't want to just appeal to that fisherman we actually want to make this a very accessible sport, right? We want to make this an accessible activity and his answer to the question is yes, they're going to be a cabela's they're going to be a kind of specialty shops you can buy direct we're going to try to place them at ari I and so we really want to portray this is like a fun, engaging experience outdoors where you get to embrace nature you know these beautiful quiet moments where you're out there on the lake it's less about actually catching fish it's about the experience and the solitude but he says I'd love to have them in both the still photo end in the video actually catch a fish so of course flag goes up and I put in asterix next to that on my notes how do we make sure we catch a fish that's a problem we need to solve and we'll get into that so the other thing is I say well eric, tell me exactly what you want where is this content? What do you what's your final delivery bill? What do you want? Still photos, video? How long is the video? How how many's still photographs and eric explains over the telephone for our mock assignment he wants to hero still images and he's primarily envisioning using those still images on the web and also in print I mean, they by a fair amount to print advertising and you can also envision them being used in point of purchase displays and stores right? If they get that cabela's account and they're gonna have, you know, kudos kayak selling all over cabela's around the world he wants to make sure that he has a point of purchase display so you know, there's a rack of kayaks and then above is a big in a poster on foam core thats a p o p despite point of purchase display and so he's describing all of these places that he thinks he can use the photos but I drilled down on so what? Eric, I just want to make sure you only need to still photos like two hero still photos and he says yep that's it okay, okay, now what about the video spot? What do you need to come from the video? And he says, well, ideally, like it's just more of a bumper style quick hit I just want people to get excited about fishing and I want them to see this product so maybe it's just a narrative with a little beginning guy going out into the lake you know, hopefully he catches a fish and show me the culture of fishing all right, so I say fifteen to thirty seconds and he says yeah fifteen would be enough thirty would be probably ideal okay? Okay and and at this point, by the way all typically if it's someone that I know very well I'll ask the next question which is key and we'll get to that eric how much money do you have to spend on this video and these still photos and often times the best thing that can happen is right then and there your client actually says to you, I've got acts and then you work backwards from max meaning for me if he says that the number is irrelevant but if he says I have a thousand dollars I have one hundred thousand dollars with that number you then have a starting point for what's actually possible at one hundred thousand dollars you can do a lot of things that the thousand dollars he's probably not getting a video spot to still photos not from me at least and so it's there's that balance in between so you want to if you can pretty early don't don't jump ahead of your discovery ask every question you can but somewhere early in the process you asked that question if you have a budget and oftentimes what a client will say, most clients will say well, we don't know we're hoping you can tell us what it would cost to do this and then you get into an estimating process so we know that our to deliver balls just so that we remember so it's to stills to stills and we're going to call it a fifteen to thirty second spot, okay, so there we go, like now we have our top item we know we know what our deliver balls are, we know what our product is, we know who we're trying to appeal to and I say to eric I said, so you guys have I noticed you have sponsorship on your website you have this, you have a bunch of kayakers, but the best whitewater kayakers in the world you have it turns out you have some of the best fishing kayakers in the world and every genre these guys seem to represent the best athletes. And so I say, well, should we use one of your athletes or do you want us to go out and hire town like, should I go to central casting and get the like the right crusty or the right good looking middle aged guy to be the kayaker and this a dialogue like, I wanna have this dialogue with eric? Because I don't know, I mean, I'm trying to formulate what this piece is really going to look like so he actually says well one option would be jim sammons jim is one of our fisherman he's world renowned he hosts the television show in the fishing network he's like the right crusty old guy has good humor he's like a fish whisper he can pull a fish out of any lake anybody of water any time so I like what I'm hearing and then I looked at the photo id google and while we're on the telephone and boom up comes jim sammons and I realized this guy really is he's like legit then he has the right look I mean I don't know what a fisherman is supposed to look like that he looks like a crusty old guy that's fishes a lot and it's like my dad can relate to this guy your dad's you know that's part of what he's trying to sell to us and how do you get a family how do you embrace this audience so I said ok in the back of my head he's a possibility but I know when you work with sort of celebrities in their world they have busy schedules and so making my schedule work with jim schedule might be tough but that's an option so then the next thing that I'm thinking about is okay so where we can actually do this shoot and so again there's our hands are a little tied with this particular scenario so this is the suspension of disbelief because we're also teaching a creative live course as part of the shoot, we needed a house on the water so we could have a classroom and this a cool house. I'm going to show you how to light a great fire later in the course in the fireplace behind me, but so we have beaver lake just outside of our window and often times, and this is all scalable. We might look a dozen locations in the ideal situation, all going to the scouting if I have time, I would love to actually going physically with my own eyes. Go and see the locations where we might shoot now that's practical if it turns out it's on the west coast or for shooting in california, I can conceivably get in my car, drive to the locations, look with my own eyes, shoot some scouting photos take notes, because there's, I'm at the end of the day responsible for the visuals for the stills in the video, but often times when the production's get bigger or if I'm just really busy, I can't actually go and do that scouting, so then we ask someone else to do the scouting, so in this particular situation and then in creative live was almost like our client I got on the phone with aaron and creative life, we talked about our mock assignment and then erin and the team that creative live actually went out and looked first online that's where you start all your scouting is online and started looking for houses that we could rent on water and eventually honed in on this particular house and you can see this is just a scouting light box this is the first page that we would deliver to a client and oftentimes there's a dialogue around scouting it's not just what I want it's also I want my client to be happy with where we're going to shoot and so that's the other clients have a hard time looking at pictures and seeing past the obvious writers photographers in his film makers we know what we can do by framing with certain backgrounds, different lenses getting the camera high, getting the camera low client's in general can't see that so often times all really protect what they see in a scouting like what's on ly show them the best kind of hero style content I might actually show my crew and the guys in my office all of the images so that they know what they're up against and let's actually have a look at so there's a couple of things by the way that you can see on this screen you can see some sun path information those first three slides and you can download these aps very easily I think somewhere free somewhere a few bucks on your iphone or your mobile device and it allows you to go to a location using the gps on your phone and actually get the exact compass bearing and gps coordinates of where you are and then it tells you where the sun is going to come up how high it's going to be in the sky and then where it's going to set and that's for me I'm very rarely exact it's not super critical but I need to know where is north where south where is the sun going to rise where shadow is going to be at the end of the day so those always going our scouting like box and then you can click on any of these thumbnails and you get the larger image of course now no, I look at this image and I said okay, I can see how we can shoot here I get it we're going to take those other kayaks off the dock in fact, the doc might not even be part of the shot beautiful water there's good clean tris I don't know if this was just a calm day or if the lake is always that glassy but I love the glassy lake because there's going to be a great reflection and as we look outside right now you know, look there's even a guy fishing right outside of our are out right outside of the classroom here he has no idea that the world is seeing right now on creative lunch I would love to see him pick his nose right now it's like a quick nose pick but the bottom line is we're looking out at the lake and it is glassy it's mid day that's a good sign so you know the wind is not picking up but the other thing that I see when I look at the scouting images that water trampling that's problematic then that is going to be an eyesore in every photograph so I mental note when I'm looking at these pictures I'm gonna have to convince bly to get in the water and detached that water trampoline so it's out of the shot we can probably move all those chairs off the dock and I can see that there's a little beach you know their sand that I can walk into on the right side and it looks like pretty clear water I mean just from this photograph taken from a knife phone that looks pretty darn good in terms of walking into the water but it also looks like a tight space to me so I instantly think do you know there's not like beach on all sides there's houses in the back but I accept that okay, this is more for an example so we're going to ignore the houses in the background so the night I thought I had one more scouting photo so when looking at this scouting phone on, we're going to really take a deeper dive into how we leveraged a situation and milk that situation for a cz much visuals as possible, I instantly started attaching ideas to this photograph. It's okay, what are the positive attributes? Water looks beautiful clean background there's a dock that allows me to get out like being, you know, standing on the water, which is kind of cool in deep water, I can see that I can walk into the water that's valuable, we're going to move that water trampling that's valuable clean background there's, some nice vegetation in the foreground and so and it's hard to gauge, but I'm guessing that's a couple of hundred feet from this photograph from this side of the lake to the other, and then we look out the window and sure enough, it is then we've got some we got some distance to work with so instantly I start thinking about why I want to be like in the water would be great to have a water housing I want to be splashing around rc helicopter would be great here between can have an area where you just see the cool reflection of the sky, we can use a long lens to really compress that background and now and this is a reality now that we're on location, I'm looking out the window and if you know if the camera pans farther right, you can see there's like real dense trees that's a clean background I mean, you have no idea that we're in like an urban lake area relatively urban with big, beautiful homes all around if we point the camera farther right, we're going to get a clean kind of, you know, to my eye at least something that looks like we're in wilderness so that's a great attribute that I didn't see in the scouting so scouting and then the other thing that I'm thinking about when scout when scouting the location is how are we going to get all the gear to the location you know, asking the scout or if I'm doing the scout okay, where we going to park the cars? How much staging area do we have if there was, if that's it if that's all I can see here that's pretty tough like where we gonna put all the gear if we're working on the beach? But when you look back at some of these thumbnails, you can see there's, a big lawn in the foreground and there's a pretty small thumbnails, but I immediately assess we have enough room to stage we have enough room to actually work without like knocking each other over um and it's relatively close to the roads were not hiking into the speech so the next thing I would do is actually all go in and look for other talent or someone in my office we'll do this so well actually call sports and lifestyle unlimited a talent agency that we work with a lot and this is all they do right? They supply light boxes of these air riel people that air you know good looking healthy athletic people that's their specialty we also keep a catalogue of these same people in our own database in the office so when we have goat you know when we have a special need good this is our description was we want a middle aged male fit hopefully graying hair because that was what I considered a kayaker based on eriks response and ideally they actually not a kayak because that's going to be a problem that's one of the challenges with shooting sports and lifestyle but sometimes you get this good looking model that has no idea how to actually do the activity and talk about like slowing the process down you know they're supposed to be riding a bike but they haven't ridden a bike since they were five years old and that really is a pain so anyhow they would send a selection of models and then we'd click into for example, one of their pages and it's all the stats anything we want to know about so this is todd often blocker who by the way I laughed out loud when we called sports unlimited they sent us this light locks and todd have seems to be one of my close friends in tile I had no idea that he was in this talent agency but the point is everything that he does and everything that all of this skill sets air here so he's a mountain biker he can climb on artificial walls he knows how to repel he's a rock climber, ice climber skiing, snowboarding, downhill uh, billiards and pool he's intermediate apparently is advanced that everything above that and I'm sure if I scrolled down he says he's intermediate to beginner fishing and so what it tells me is this guy has a good attitude but there's also a flag that goes up, which is he's, not the authentic fisherman and so now we might have no one on the job that actually understands fishing and that's a problem. And of course, one of the other questions I ask pretty early on to air jackson to the client is is anyone going to come from jackson kayak? Is anyone gonna be on the job with me and it's a really double edged sword on one hand when they say no one's coming with you on location, the beauty is you have total creative freedom and no one's talking in your ear while you're trying to be creative the flipside is the margin for screwing up goes through the roof so it's much easier to do something that they don't like if they're not there on the other hand, if eric is there with me and I'm showing him the back of the camera we have a client monitor reviewing content at night it's much easier if he doesn't like it in the end I say eric I mean you were there with me when I showed you this stuff and so that's in the ad agency world that's really how it works there's always agency representation and the client and part of the reason those productions get really big everyone needs to sign off along the way so that everyone can pointed the other guy if something goes wrong and so you know the beauty of this shoot is eric says no, I'm not going to come on location you know we have a small budget for this production and so I you know it would be it would be really helpful in fact if you could do this job with someone who really understands fishing so instantly todd even though he's my good friend he's out like we can't use todd because he's not a fishing pro so we're going to get into some of the other details and these air you know you're always going to make decisions how you approach your your shoot we carry a pretty big insurance policy and we always get riders for each job that we're doing well actually have a certain pulled for every shoot that we dio if it's for a corporate clients, and the reason is if something goes wrong, you are really vulnerable. Oftentimes we probably couldn't rent this house unless we had that insurance, and it protects all of your equipment when you're making real investments and cameras and chibs and tripods. And when you get around water or any any production environment stuff breaks. So we carry a pretty basic policy we use tom pickard and company, their southern california based insurance company. They write policies in l a for video and film makers as well is still photographers and there's kind of basic policies, or you can get pretty complicated and larger. S o this is this is a beefed up policy compared to what kind of a basic policy would be. I think on the high end, we have a ten million dollars, um liability policy, and then they break it down by it's a little difficult to read this, by the way, if you download this course will get this entire pdf so you can analyze our policy, you can analyze the production documents, the scouting, see how we're handling it on our website. But the bottom line is you want to make sure that your equipment's covered you want to make sure the people that you're shooting are covered. You want to make sure your crew is covered, you know, worst case scenario, bly falls off the dock, you know, dislocates his arm, I want him to be covered, so we have workman's comp insurance on the same production policy, and then we build this back to the client, so we break it out over, okay, if we do one hundred shoots during the year and just for simplicity and the policy costs a thousand dollars, then we divide that by a hundred shoots and that gets applied per day to each of our clients and oftentimes with little markup, we still need to manage that policy. What? You had a question, um, so, like in the event that, like, what about dad ege lost? Have you ever, like, had an issue where you're like on shoot somewhere, you lose a card or I don't know like, do you have, like, a back up? I've never had that I've lost a lot of equipment and damaged a lot of equipment, but I've never lost a shoot in terms of where we had to use the insurance to pay to reshoot, but definitely I was in fiji. And an entire camera back rolled off a boat with about twelve thousand dollars worth of equipment just instantly went to about a hundred feet underwater on and thankfully was the last day of the shoot, but there was this really reassurance of knowing okay it's painful but we're going to pay a deductible and I'm back up on shooting we ordered gear was in my office by the time I returned from fiji we had an entire replacement kid of gear so it's worth the value of all it's going to take is that one time your gear get stolen out of the car and remember is a professional your renters insurance your homeowner's insurance does not cover your professional gear so that's a big deal this policy covers deer covers the production it covers your crew in some policies cover if you really screw it up or you know your computer gets stolen and all the hard drives well can you go back and reshoot thankfully knock on wood or metal? I've never had that so now the other thing that and again everyone needs to make this decision for themselves when we're working for commercial clients, we always try to pull a permit so whether you're working on private property, we get permission and paid for the location where we're working on public land will go and actually apply formally for that officially for that permit you no, believe me, I'm not gonna lie to you have done a lot of shoots without a permit, but it is the most awkward situation when you're on public land and arranger drives out and he looks at you and your six buddies with the jib arm mountain this is what you guys doing and and you don't have a permit, and in fact, I'm going to tell a self deprecating story. Just a couple of months ago, we were on a big shoot seven day shoot, and at the last minute we decided to go to another location that wasn't permitted, but it was just too good to pass up, so we show up and we're in, like, five suburbans. And, you know, all of the gear comes out and ladders and lights and we're shooting and sure enough and it's really hard to be creative when you're concerned about the law showing up and actually, you know, locking you up so I'm standing on the ladder and I'm shooting it out of the corner of my eye. I see like a big blazer coming with, you know, lights on top, the ranger pulls up, and I think to myself, you know, this is going to be bad. And you know, my client's there and I've warned everybody I said we're really like we should not be doing this but just understand the consequence we're going to get shut down it was off season so we thought we could pull it off and in the back of my head I'm rationalizing you know we pulled like twelve other permanent so I should be able to talk my way out of this and I don't know why I did it but as the ranger pulled up he's today what do you guys doing? I have no idea why I said this I should have just said hey, we know better we have other permits and instead I took the low road and I said, oh, we're just students were students just doing a little project and the guy of course he's a smart guy has been in law enforcement and looks penises students is pretty impressive production for a brooks production that's the school down in southern california where is shooting and I realized that was just digging this hole for myself and I get about like three scoops into the hole and I finally said and I'm looking at my client I'm like turning red I'm just thinking this is just getting worse I mean and then he finally asked and they said so I just want to be clear because this just a school project I'm never going to see these images published commercially and I and I paused and I realized ok, it's kind of like that old mark twain thing like the less you lie the less you have to remember and I kind of went into reverse and I said, you know, let me just let me let me just start over we're not permitted for this location this a commercial shoot I have no idea why I just lied to you and thankfully the guy laughed at meaning today I appreciate you being honest and then he said, well, keep on doing what you're doing I'm going to call my office like that, you know, he was a forest service ranger, a park ranger and he said, just call here's judy's number you guys khun retroactively pull permits just finish up with another so I mean the message is twofold pull permits don't try to fake it, especially with clients because they will shut you down and there's really consequence, you can actually get fined and number two is don't lie like if you do end up in the situation where you happened to be shooting without a permit just be honest just explain what you're doing. You know, law enforcement officers are reasonable people on being one of the things that we find as we pull permits by the way I'm showing you this example permit, which is why we didn't pull a permit for this location we rented the house it's private property, so we're covered the owners of this house signed the property release that we're allowed to do whatever we want to do on this premise, but this is more standard if we're using national forest land or national parkland it's a fairly thorough document where they state everything that you're allowed and not allowed to do, they ask a lot of questions in terms of what are you doing? Is that a still photography shoot, commercial shoot tv movie, tv episode music video, comparable documentary, other proposed locations with riel permits? They really want to know where you're going to be. So when we did the y film in joshua tree national park, we had to identify the exact rock that we wanted to shoot on, and we had to show them the path that we would use to get into that rock. Now that sounds like a lot of red tape and and I say this again not taking a dig at hollywood, but this permitting system was not set up for small footprint productions like us where there's five people everybody respects the outdoors, the camera's fit in the backpack, the tripods on that same backpack it's set up for big cruise, big grip trucks and guys standing around throwing cigarettes in the weeds that's that's, why this permitting processes so elaborate and so what we try to do is when we fill out these permits will really take it to that next level and fill in anywhere that we can well really describe when we have some templates now that we use where a small footprint production will be a five person crew we're using the slr cameras ultra lightweight we're using lightweight tripods where and really truck because these are real people remember the person on the other end of the park service office that's receiving this permit their going to read that paragraph and we'll describe how we're not actually a hollywood crew and it means a ton in these guys you know they care about this jurisdiction they care about the part that they're protecting and when they understand that it's this new model of production small footprint production you know kind of they take a sigh of relief and once you've worked in a single park and you can point it past productions and say, look, we've shot in the grand canyon with shouting somebody was shot they look, they know their colleagues and they say, hey, did you have any problems with these guys? And as long as there were no flags your golden it's much easier to slide into that position be honest with what you're going to do, you know here's the question are you doing anything unique? Pyrotechnics, hazardous materials, aerial stunts you know, this has been a learning curve for us. Now. We have to explain when we're going to use an rc helicopter, and this is becoming a bit of a touchy situation now in certain cities and in certain air spaces. And sean can address this later when we get into questions just where rc helicopters are allowed and where they're not. But when you're filing a permit nine times out of ten, we actually tell them we're really going to use an rc helicopter, because it looks bad when the rangers shows up, you know, he meets you for the first time and there's like a flying machine in his part, and he looks at your permit, he says. That's. Weird that's, not a small tripod, so you want to be honest, is the bottom line. When you're when you're filling out these permits, andi, you know, you're gonna have to sign it and put your name on this thing.