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Q&A w/ Hugh Howey Part 2

Yeah well you know I come back to I come back to the reason people connected with you in the first place is not just because you're such a nice guy you know it's because they connected with your reading your writing and they really love reading your writing that's why I looked you up in the first place and it really is like tries me nuts when there's an author that I love that has a new book out and I didn't even know about it and so in a lot of times and that's where like I have that stance of like inviting them to buy right it's not like I have uh I have to pay my mortgage you know my kids got my kids got to eat peas by my book you know it's like look I've got a new book out I wrote it for you yeah you know please buy it and at least at least lets people know they're down there right now for free yeah yeah yeah yeah get somewhere question yeah yeah let's go in studio here so I have a question about the kind of stuff you've done one on one stuff you've done from marketing so you've re...

cord a lot of videos uh a lot of that is one to one write but you've still sold a million copies so what is other stuff that's worked for you and do you do a lot of tracking with that? Um what so what's worked for me and joe I do tracking to see what are you tracking like what's working and what are some things that have got you to sell the million copies I did, uh didn't mohr when I was when I had more downtime, I wanna have a day job and I could like instead of working sitting click refresh on my katie p page and realize that a mentioned here saw you know, a boost in my sales and that's really cool tool that we have that we could see our real time sales something that even publishers don't have um but the things that were the best for me with things that were out of my control I had a mention on gives moto on boing boing on wired's geek dad blawg there's we're all because someone who worked there read the book through word of mouth and then how to mention and the sales went through the roof. In the case of the gizmodo mentioned we cracked the new york times best seller list um how khun, I'm sorry to the editors of gizmodo are going to get flooded with requests to see the book, but how do you control that? You can't you know the work er was the most control that I had over it my availability is the other thing that I can control and how much I choose to engage people if I hear from someone and keep down like, hey, wouldyou liketo to an interviewer are, you know, write a guest blogger something absolutely would you like to fly out for this boingboing event? Of course, you just say yes to every opportunity, and the other thing is that, um, like, I was talking about where having that platform where you connected to people, it gives that initial boost to everything you do that allows stuff like that to happen. Um, and again, I'm going to use the example again because it's, the most recent for me, is like having that initial push of getting my first thousand copies out in two in two weeks, start started a trail that led me to that guy that blogged about my book that I got a lot of sails through, right? So I couldn't control that, but I can control the communication with the people I have direct access to, and then the further you get down the mohr of those people, each of those people have two hundred fifty people they're connected to. So the more people you connect to in that way, that mme or your you're going to be auto wants something and push it far enough where it gets a life of its own and starts taking off and I think you have to be resigned to how much luck and um I'm cem it requires a lot of fortuitous events to occur and that's true however you publish and whatever you write um I read incredible books all the time that aren't selling well and I can't fathom why I do everything I can to promote those and then we all read books that are best sellers and we're like why it's a best seller and our taste or just a little different so there's you know there's things out of our control I focus on the things that I can't control it just to write every day into to be available to do whatever tim tells me I'm doing well and you've got to remember that most of those million people that have read his books I don't really care that much about you like they haven't tracked him down on facebook they haven't tracked it down it's like it came up is a recommendation it has like eighty million reviews that look good okay I'll buy it and give it a try they read it they love it and they move on with their life right but what what caused them to finally buy that was a friend saying hey you gotta buy wool or it was that many people leaving reviews and that kind of stuff you can control the spark you know what I mean? That's what you can control is like you know you when you were at ninety reviews and you said I'm going to do a crazy dance when I hit one hundred you were responsible for those last ten because enough people have read it and just hadn't taken the time they're like I want to see you dance and they left to review you know what I mean? So that that was that spark to kind of get it going and that's what? I see it as is like yes there's no way he could directly control and he's directly connected to a million people but he can control the spark that starts those that starts like I like to think of it is luck on purpose you know, if you were sitting in your room writing books and putting them up for sale and then not doing anything else gizmodo would've never reviewed it you know what I mean? But somewhere you did something that sparked it that went to them that started the trail of went to this one to that went to that ended up because moto and the thing is is that you do that enough times and that will happen somehow that you will start some spark you spark enough things and it's going to start a forest fire at some point yeah, I think you have to put the work in or basically every everything that you do is like a seperate lottery ticket and there's still a chance involved but the person who doesn't play camp possibly went so every book you write every blonde post every contact you make every all the hard work that that tim's talking about putting in for goingto live events and meeting people just increases your odds it's not a guarantee but I'll tell you what to guarantee is if you if you just a dream and you don't do it or if you think I should be doing this I'm not going to today your chances just went down and so what do you want to get out of your career what you want to get out of life that's how much effort you put into it is going to determine your your odds there so besides your ballet video what how much video do you use in your marketing on getting the word out and how valuable is video versus the written word and how you communicate to yourself? I swear by doing videos I think they're either easier for me because I could just, you know, hit my webcam and talk to people and be myself and you know, you can't tell I'm being sarcastic on to put like winky faces after all my you know, horrible jokes and um and I can interact and show you things and on dh you can see you know my writing space and be invited into my home um it's also much easier for people to share people will embed it into facebook post still will you khun embedded in your blawg so now you've got this video that you could just insert and places very quickly um people are more likely to watch a video they are too it seems like less work it's passive like you're doing all the speaking I can just sit there and listen reading is something that you have to trace the words and form in your mind and you're doing a lot of the work and so it feels more laborious um and use videos really well I'll ask tim like I don't know how to do this a wordpress and instead of writing a long email on do this step and do that and do all these screen captures he records his his desktop of him clicking around and it's him talking me through it and I composite and find that and hit play and it's it's easier for him to do is easier for me to use it's beneficial for everyone and I've had readers do video reviews of my my work and I love watching them it's just it's so different and engaging and more personable you find more interactive with your people follow you I mean it sounds like it's this condition a two year old who like I did a video for it was talking back to me yeah, I think I think it's more likely to share it and I think people who don't want to take the time to read a blogger post will watch you and say the same content and the other thing is to find something that you feel comfortable doing I have tried doing those where I'm speaking into and I hate hate doing absolutely hated maybe that's something I need to get over, but what I found is I really like putting together interesting power point presentations and I didn't have time to do really fun ones for twelve hours content otherwise but like online I really worked hard on my key notes and what I'll do is I'll just screen capture me going through a power point presentation while I'm teaching something and I'm speaking on it and I feel much more comfortable doing that um and I had a client one time who was much more comfortable doing audio than writing she wanted to write stuff but she's like crazy get in her head you know it has to be perfect for it release it into the world so I'm like what if he just did audio where you recorded your voice and spoke for a few minutes to put out she loved it she just started doing that all the time and it worked really well for so I think, um it's experiment find something that works, you know the most important thing is that you're giving ways for people to connect with you and whatever is easiest for you is going to work because you'll actually do it. You know, a lot of times we get our own head, it was like, we see somebody being successful doing it this way and it's like, well, I can't do that, so I won't or it's not perfect, so I'm not gonna do that are, you know, whatever it is and, you know, fine nothing that you'll do and that's the right thing because it's better than not doing anything, and so he does these videos where you sits in the in boxes and it and it works really well on people love him, and I get really good feedback on these videos I do and it's because I'd like doing them, and I can do them all day long, and and it works because that means I found if I don't do them that way, I just won't do it because I can't get out of my own head for other things. So the most important thing is that you're doing it and that you're trying and that you're putting stuff out, and, um, you know, it really comes back to constantly trying new things and constantly getting back up and trying something new and then sticking your toe in different types of water so many times well like start and it doesn't work that we won or it seems too hard and so we just kind of stopped for a while and you know you've got to remember like this is a long game you've got to keep trying and trying new things and eventually oh feel natural eventually you'll find things like this for me like I mentioned before, this whole creative life thing has been like hugely outside of what I'm comfortable all with like ever since I signed that contract like six weeks ago just like have nightmares about it right? But you know, this was something I need to do and it was a good decision for what I was trying to do, you know? So I did it anyway it's and it's not sucking by the way that's good launching it is not sucking yeah yeah, that was my threshold just don't weigh have one here from terram my own now we talked about kindle worlds earlier she said you how is school is one of the world you can write for? I'd love to know how he hooked up with that if he applied the amazon or did they contact him one of the prerequisites and do you get a share of the royalties from us and I also want you to expand on why you think, it's a good idea, this whole idea of fan fiction and people actually being able to make money off of it. Okay, well, the first, the way this came up was outside of the kindle world's paradigm. Actually, had people are writing little fan fiction bits in a forum, the writing for him and I was hilarious. And I said, man, this is really good. You should put a cover on this and put it up on kendall for ninety nine cents. And part of that is I know the guy who wrote it, and I I think he's very entertaining, and it takes too much of his time entertaining people in a form for free when people would pay a dollar for this and get value out of it and he would supplement his income. And so I encouraged him to publish it and make it available. And then I had other people, you know, I have a world that's naturally set up for a lot of different stories without spoiling the the plot. Um, so it made sense to me when people approach me and said, drive your permission to write fan fiction I said, yeah, and I would feel comfortable if you just sell, published it and charge money for it rather than giving it away because I know you know the amazon really the place to be with your work if you want to get noticed um I was sitting at a seven dinner with one of the guys from him is on publishing when they were in talks with acquiring the rights to a siri's and they asked me what my attitude was on fan fiction and I said, well, I'm encouraging people to to publish it and sell it online that like, well, we can know and we have ah project that we think you might be interested in and I think that having they were having a hard time getting people to sign on to open up their worlds and they knew of course that I wasn't against that because I'm already doing it. So as soon as soon as I heard about I thought this is brilliant that you guys air are leading the charge on this and, um it is a royalty split, but you know, I got an advance which is kind of like a licensing fee and if I I don't think I'll ever earn it out if I did anything I make, we'll just go to a charity uh, if I get a royalty statement for that program, I'm just gonna donate because I don't feel comfortable profiting from other people's work, but I feel very comfortable other people profiting from where working because it's not my work fan fiction I'm writing a piece of fan fiction now it's my next next being released it is so much more difficult than writing original fiction you're constrained by the characters and the rules in the world that someone else sent up and I've already encountered things like man I wish the author had not written this one detail and that I could ignore it because I would love for this character to be a different age and he creates complications as for whether I think it's been official it's it's beneficial for the readers and for these other authors um why is it beneficial for the author's what is beneficial for them? Because I've got guys these are all just readers who want to be right or some of them have their own serious and there there full time it's self published writers and they're writing in the silo saga world and there's readers are now discovering their works amazons algorithms will say all you enjoyed this book not about this world but by this author like jason girl earlier michael bunker or lane griffin thes uh fan fiction authors will have their books recommended to people who read their silas saga world so I know they've seen a huge increase in the earnings and some are making a full time living and they credited for the excellent work that they wrote in the silence of the world that's good for everybody. I mean another author making a living more readers finding material that they enjoy so they're going back to buy more books from other people. It just helps everybody and I'm sure someone is going to read that's probably happened read a piece of fan fiction first and then go what is this based on? And then go back and find the original material and, um I think it's gonna help me last it'll help everyone else, but I'm I'm doing okay that I can you know, if I can do something that would give other people a boost I'm paying afford for the people who helped me when I was getting started, you have quite a body of work now, and mikki taylor is asking jim thirteen forty eight, asking a similar question. What is the ideal time now between books? How often do you think you should be publishing for your audience? Way possible? I have a quick as you can. Is it possible I know their authors now experimenting with not publishing a book when it's done but writing the rest of the siri's and having four books that can release on a monthly basis because the illusion momentum that yearly released cycle is not good for readers? It's good for publishers is good for bookstores because they have a conveyor belt of widgets and if they can have you know that blue which it comes out on november, you know, just simplifies the process for them, for the readers and for the author that's a long time for people to wait and I think if you you know it only takes me about three months to write a book and I know that that's not unusual, a lot of major authors write and very short time george r r martin is an exception. I couldn't read it because I just, uh, you know, give him a hard time uh, couple weekends ago about it, but, um, if you can produce over your work and his quality work, get it out of soon as it's ready don't delay it for any reason when there's some neat stuff that people are doing it it's actually being built in the amazon now where you khun do episodic things and so and I know you released will in five parts before you, you know, put together is one full book and that gave away too quickly get get stuff out on a regular basis, be able to celebrate new releases over a quicker period of time and allow people to be involved in the process um, I think all of that's good and again it's good for the reader to be able to, you know, not have to wait so long and it you know to me it's good to you know we've talked about st staying top of mind and you know there's there's this one off they're like it's taken them three years to get the final part of his trilogy done and I'm like come on man like I'm dying to know what happened you know and like I kind of lose interest and I've actually lost interest in authors because there's been like so much lag time and I get into other only thing you talked about just last night unwillingness to get into a serious that you know is not finished and I think it might not be a wall it's finished so the quicker you released and publishers of figuring this out there allowing you know nor roberts to write under jd robin do two books a year james patterson is up to about seventy two books a year that he releases orbits is doing lots of shorter fiction so they'll take um they'll take their authors that have a popular like fooling novel and have them write new like short fiction released that is on a tighter cycle yeah again it's the reader student I mean, what do they want to? They were all readers we know what we like when we finish a book that we love, we don't want to say, okay I can't wait to wait a year to forget everything that just happened in this book and pick up the sequel and ask, who is this person? And why do I care about them again? You have to re read like thousands and thousands of pages before the next books come out. His writing is so good, it's working it's a very, very quick supplementary questions coming from bold books and maybe ten you can answer this one is that ideal time clearly works of fiction. But does it work for nonfiction? Yeah, I think that, um the quicker, um, there's there's people doing this with nonfiction there's a guy scott stratton, I think writes a lot of how to books around kindle and, um, blogging and this kind of thing. Um, I've only read one of them and it was pretty good, so I can't really recommend the work, but he has lots of books, and you releases them on a very tight schedule, and it gives lots what I like about it. What I like about it is that it gives a lot of in points entry points, right? So every new book that you put out there every new, just like every new belong, post every new piece of content. It's a new entry point for somebody to find out about you so that's that's really before is more important for nonfiction because it's not you don't need to read it sequentially so if you have one hundred nonfiction books out there then like you talk about entry points anyone could lead you to reading more of that backless yet but the same time don't fall into a trap of like holding back you know, I've seen this has been a lot of negative feedback about south self published work is people will write a book that is basic clie a advertisement for their services or an advertisement for something else they're selling and I've seen a lot of like kind of the sleazy information marketer internet marketer guys do this kind of stuff we're like I was following I follow a lot of these guys just tow keep up with what they're doing so I picked up a copy of the book and it was like the most shallow but possible, but he was selling a lot of copies because he was doing all these tricks behind the scenes and all this kind of shit and it's like, you know, write something good but don't feel like I mean, you know, look, look att my book like it's not exactly like novel length, you know, but what was nice is I was able to self publish it and I got here and I'm like I'm done like it's completed I can release it and I can start working on something else and so um you know, all of these rules that have been set up over siri's of time of like a book the average business book is like two hundred forty pages and how many of us have read a business book it's repeating like jeez like they were done at page forty but they have a contract for a certain amount of words to justify the print costs yeah, yeah, you know? And um actually the guys from thirty seven signals talked about this with rework where they had a contract for a certain level book and like they they were they've realized we're forcing this and so they didn't finish writing it and they basically filled it with like illustrations and some other stuff and it's a fantastic book and the book was done but they had to jump through all these hoops because the book has to be this long matter what? So I think it's really good it gives entry points it gives the other thing from a mark purely marketing standpoint is it gives you several thing it gives you a every time you promote something, you're going to sell war, you're going to sell products so if you come out with something on a regular cycle it gives you something to promote we were talking about this. He was going to release his entire silo saga as, ah, a bundle, and we're talking about whether or not you should release it at the same time of dust and, like it's, not a good idea. People get confused, they won't know. What should I buy dust? And if I've already bought wool but not shift, should I wait? And like all this kind of stuff, I say what it is, it's better to release one thing, give it a little bit and then released something else gives you something else to talk about, you know, also gives me time to dio cover art stuff. Yes, with, um I think another thing is visibility. You mentioned the serum release of wall, which was kind of organic. It wasn't a plan ahead of time, so this is more like post talk. Uh, but people are doing the exact same thing examining it now. Yeah, they're yeah, they're much smarter than I am about it. I mean, I just looked into it, but what I noticed was by having five works available at the same time, they were all hitting the bestseller list together, and one book blends in with all the other books they're all books. When there's five in the top of amazon science fiction like you see what is wool and why is like a book about sheep in science fiction essay then you get an extra, uh, chance of getting a click and they're seeing what fame of these must be really good if I look at one all of your other book all the other rules filled that customers also bought so it's like it's not even promoting other people's work when others like silas saugus stuff there yeah get some fan fiction mm, now we have a big photography audience here and I know snappy gourmet and it was a regular in the chat room uh was just talking about making recipe books we have a lot of times you make me wanna make photo books coffee table books not that stuff. Can you talk a little bit about photo books if you have any thoughts on those we have dc photo guy hell dad and art of quist says how do you connect all this? Be sure you're helping people mindset with photographers trying to sell coffee table books mean, we're not exactly creating teachable content. Well, I think, um this kind of creative creative vein it's actually, it strikes me as kind of a balance between fiction and nonfiction, right? So it isn't like you know, twelve tips on how to lose weight is this it is maura about an entertainment and adding value to people's live a more artistic way um but I think some of the same rules apply so I think one thing is to make sure that you have an audience in place that's interested in your photography um and also have an actual niche you know if you just sell kind of random book of photography that isn't about any one thing people don't know what to do with it don't know why they're buying it in the first place and so I think making sure that there's a focus that there's like these you know that these type of people are looking for these type of images so you put those together and you make sure that those people know it's available um I have this book called spectacle on my on my bookshelf and it's basically um there it is there are words in it so it's not just a photography book but it is very much a coffee table book and it's basically these great photos from all these different events and festivals and stuff around the world like burning man and on several others and it's this really great um photography book but it has a theme through it has like its about these festivals it's about taking you to these places in the world and showing you these things and I keep it out because it's a really awesome photography but um so I think that um a lot of the same rules apply in the fact of light you need to find an audience you need to find what they're looking for and you need to make sure that you're offering something that they're interested in and that they know what's coming and they were also very clear about who this is for um you know what what were those they were always so creepy to me with the little baby's who's that flowers yeah yeah you know I mean but those sold really really well because they had a very specific theme um I always think that there is this this story about how like she wanted a really small baby to be in these guys hand so they actually put something out in the paper about like an advertisement for how they needed somebody with large hands and they got really weird stuff back and so but you know, those she really built a niche for her her artwork and certain types of people are interested in that work in certain types of people like me weren't um and so I think making sure that you're building an audience around a niche you know there's a great book that I think anybody trying to sell anything should read called blue ocean strategies and it talks about you know, not trying to do the same thing everybody else is doing but creating in this that you can own and I think to add to that, you need to go in ahead of time knowing what the market is like and keep your expectations based on that if you're going in writing literary fiction know that it doesn't sell a swell as erotic, and that doesn't mean don't do it. But coffee table books are really difficult sale right now, and I know that's true of major publisher so it's ah, uphill battle um, and if you know that I had a time, you know, you've got more work to do, you've got to be more original, more outside the box. Um, you know, if, um included with your photography book like lessons on on the back page, like how you took that shots of people interested in photography can learn a craft while they're doing it package and disposable digital camera with it, and, you know, it doesn't cost that much of this, maybe not adding a lot of value but it's unusual, but you have to think of something bizarre because you're going into a niche that does not have a huge audience, and I think treating all books is if all books with the same is dangerous because genre sells better than non genre fiction sells better than non fiction nonfiction might be better for getting entree into speaking engagements and earning a living that way every every one of these styles of books requires different strategies and if you know that ahead of time maybe you you keep your expectations and he did and you did a beloved post talking about this and that was really good and I think it is that idea of sometimes we get frustrated that the world is not the way we want it to be describes got frustrated that nobody needed them anymore and sometimes you're trying to do something that people don't want that and that and that is a decision you're going to have to make as creative with horror that if you're an artist I mean yeah it's that's almost the definition of art is like doing something that no one else is going to care about and on that's a very cynical view and maybe that's my own hang ups when tom talked about yesterday how you know now that cartooning about marketing is this full time job he spends his weekends and nights doing stuff for his community and doing stuff about family and doing cartoons that are outside of marketing that's just for him and so you know, I, um um, you know, I've written some fiction and I have not released into the world cause I just want to do it didn't rhyme oh, right, I just wanted to like do it right forty thousand words in a month and so I just did it and it's, like I did that for me, I'm not looking to put it out to the world or anything. And then I wrote my book that I thought I could actually sell, and so I did that because I thought I could actually sell it, and it would help my business. So the other thing with this is, you know, the idea of, like, you know, be very clear about why you're doing it, and if you if you are trying to make a living on it, you have to do something that's marketable, and, um, you have to think ahead on what's gonna be marketable and try some things and experiment with things, especially with print on demand. You can experiment all you want, yeah, because you're not picking on paying anything. I mean, it's, just your time question. Thank you, trevor, before the fantastic questions we've had so many about things like kindle versus print of e books is that the future, etcetera, but my crops come up with a question that possibly encapsulate everything. So where will the future of public should be heading, say, in five to ten years time, just so, like everything so wear laughing about this over dinner is like, I've basically stopped if somebody is saying, I predict acts I just stopped reading and move on because they're they're always wrong and there's all these studies behind how like monkeys throwing darts at a dartboard can pick stocks better than the experts you know, like so you know, I think so with that said, I'm gonna make some predictions so first of all book stores that sell physical paper books will become very much like record stores are now they exist um but their not the main way that people get their music um and I don't think that would just be because physical books will go away, but, you know, buying physical books online, it's just it becomes so much cheaper and so much more convenient for people than finding the dwindling bookstores that I mean it's not just that everything's gonna go doing the last time that barnes and noble posted a quarterly profit I mean, it's been years, I think at this point and independent bookstores air seeing double digit growth because I do think there's still a market um it started to make this a dialogue, but I know and we're both gonna be wrong about everything all right? Yeah, I made that clear from the beginning this is we don't know what we're talking about independent bookstores are doing well because they're catering to the reader and they're offering a community for people not only who like to read, but people like to write and getting authors and for event almost like a community around people that like to own record players and like play records, have you no audio files? Yes, anu, new independent bookstores are opening up. Will that be a long term trend? I certainly hope so, because that's my fallback job. But, you know, I and the other thing that I think will never change and that is only going to get better is the fact that you can experiment, try new things. The book is changing. What? You know what can be a book? The whole ecosystem around it's changing. And, you know, I really liked the idea of like, this this kind of both idea, like throw all the rules out. If you threw all the rules out the window, what would you want to do? And you can probably do that nowadays. Yeah. And that's a lot of times when I say to the client is like let's, pretend like you could do anything, what do you want to do on the other thing is we're in an environment we can throw a cz much against the wall and just sees what see what sticks you know, it cost exactly zero dollars to publish a book in both print and digital that's like stop and think about how nuts that isthe like that has never existed before, like you had to have a bankroll behind you of somebody your own money, something to get a book out to the world. Now you can put his many books out into the world for absolutely free, and the on ly time you spend any money is when you're making money that's crazy, that's horrifying for some people and stick to the future of publishing people say it's horrible that anyone can publish a book and I I just yeah it's it's so it's, so grating to me to hear that it's like saying it's horrible that anybody could go out and play music on the street or garden in their backyard, you know it doesn't have to be about a profession. Writing is now so inexpensive, it's, just your time that it's as no hobby that you can write and publish a book and your friends can read it and have a good time, and I don't know how we don't celebrate that it's it's like any other artistic endeavor, if we get more people painting and taking their stuff to craft fairs, our gallery, people going to come and say like that's horrible like, who allowed you to paint and why is that will display and that should be covered up and you know, I don't do that we get here if you feel that way, if that's something that you feel like, you've really got to check your motive for why you think that is like, who gets to decide, then who's good enough and he's not good enough, you know, I'm sure you've heard so many stories of, like, I got rejected from, like, twelve publishers, and then I put my work out and went to number one, you know, in a couple weeks that happens all the time. Yeah, you know, toe following that, I think it's celebrating, uh, kids, I've worked with youth, nana raimo groups, and at the end we would get there book edited and polished and allow twelve and thirteen year old kids to publish and show their grandmother that they have a book on amazon. That book is not getting in anyone's way you do not know anyone could make a web page or a blawg. I don't stumble over the words like claw through all these web pages and blog's to get to espn dot com I got a right to what I want my friends. If they find something great, they share it with me and that's how things get awareness all these books that have been published, people worry about their not clogging up anything there completely invisible and obscure. Until that one person stumbles upon the jewell and goes and shows everyone else what they discovered. And then you have a best seller. So that the future to me, I think you know karl marx. Uh, you know, I was excited about the day when the people own production and he thought that was gonna come through the end of capitalism. But capitalism has created the tools that allow everyone to be the producer. Now we have people doing three d printing. We have, um, you know, you guys do a creative live does a lot of photography stuff, and the equipment is so much less expensive than it used to be and the processing because it's all digital it's so much cheaper, these air, the barriers to entry and all these creative endeavors are coming down and anybody who's not excited about that. I just I'm sorry for your cynical of black heart. Ah, it's a beautiful time to be a to be a content creator and and someone who absorbs content. I mean, I have been entertained by youtube so much and it's people who aren't in them for the money, just having fun and being creative and the only people who are scared of that or the people who are going to have to compete against it