Less Phone, More Human with Dan Schawbel
every day. What's up? It's Chase. Welcome to another episode of the Chase Jarvis live show here on Creativelive. You're familiar with this show? This is where I sit down with amazing humans and I do everything I can't unpacked their brains with the goal of helping you live those dreams of yours and career and hobby and in life. My guest today is an entrepreneur. He's a New York Times best selling author. And in this episode, we're gonna really focus on his new book called Back to Human. My guest is the inimitable Dan Schawbel. So happy Yes, We love you. We made a great palace way. We made it happen We've had a relationship on the Internet for, like years and years Time flies, time flies Um And we were just saying before the cameras started to roll how cool it is to meet someone in person that you spent a lot of time corresponding with on the Internet. And ironically, that's just the perfect Segway into the book. I don't have to go straight there, but the book about back to human, how m...
uch more personal and cool it is when you actually have spent time around someone. So, um, But before we go to the book, give me the background. Go way back all the way back machine. How'd you get here? Where'd you come from? Give me a story. I came from Newton, Massachusetts. First job was at age 13 so I had my bar mitzvah of my dad's like, Okay, you're getting toe works. Does Kato in my temple learn how to deal with people? I think everyone should have a service job in their life. So important, Right? That's the most important scale. People. I was like, Why are you tipping so heavily? I'm like, because I had that job for, like, five years. You can relate to them in their situation. And then I had my first internship height in high school senior year. I had where you said what was that? Was anything interesting? You want to talk about her? Is that with the pizza shop? Yeah, I was cold calling one summer, selling phone, auditing, whatever. That IHS 1000 or so calls. You know, I got no love, didn't close any sales and was seen next to customer service. And they were just smoking cigarettes a little time, so is that I was depressed as I felt like I was a failure and I realized that that's not that's not the path that I wanted to take. And I knew I was very creative because I was creating websites like kind of James Bond website. I had Power Rangers website a W C W website. Before, so were these fan sites. Yeah, I was just doing her for fun was a creative outlet and and then, you know, after when I got into school, nothing has been easy. So getting to school, I applied early decision. I didn't get in and that was the first moment where I was like, OK, I gotta work really hard. I gotta prove myself to them Isn't weird. Interviewed on campus, wrote a letter, got straight A's last master fought my way in, got in, took college very seriously. Seven more internships. I was a student in seven. I was Yeah, but I think that is a roll over. But it's a really interesting realization that at any point in life, if you've ever had things have been easy. Even if it's like friendships have been easy or you came from a really stable house or whatever, and then real world starts toe happen. You're like crack like, Wow, this is like there's no one. No one is coming for you. There's there's no power Rangers or not coming to save the day. You have to do this stuff. I'm so thankful, though, that things never came easy to has prepared me for the rest of my career even now and so when I tried to get a job when I graduated, even with the two page resume. Eight. Internship, seven Leadership position on campus. Three days I had everything. I started my first business sophomore year of college, and still it took eight months meeting 15 people for three jobs. Teoh get that job and I graduated. But the thing that happened was during the final set of interviews. They look down on my resume and they saw a bunch of companies I work for, and their eyes immediately went to Reebok. And that was the life changing moment. I said, Oh my God, brands are so important. I got no experience at Reebok. It was the summer when Adidas acquired them, which most people don't know, and so I didn't think nothing there. But I did so much at some of the smaller firms that you've never heard of before. And yet their eyes went right to Reebok. I'm like, Oh, my God, brands are important. I have to take brand seriously So everything I dio touches brands. Now, if you look at my bio, if you look at all of my work, there's always, you know, im partnering with Oracle on a research study. You know, I'm, you know, with clients and everything that I'm doing. It's always brands because I always realize that if you don't know me, you've heard of this brand before and through the association. You're more or less trust me because of it. Isn't it fascinating that the same thing is true for the creative industry, for for clients, For me is photographer for years and years, and I think that's originally how he met. In fact, and, uh, like if you have and to me, I was in course in photography. So if you have certain nice magazines or helpful, but if you have some really big brands, then it's like, Oh, because they people realized that is a qualifier like, No, you don't just like, Well, of course, you can sneak through the sneak through the fence and in any world, but by and large, if you could name more than one of those, there's has to be, you know, there's there's a cheque amounts you can't work. You can't keep doing that and not get found out that you suck. And the same is true with the job, right? Especially in this day and age, you can you can bounce around a little bit. But now there's so much information so much So I remember, um, one of the way back I started reading your stuff online as you were writing. Um, I think it was in May be inker, Forbes or, um four through seven years. Seven. Starting in 2010. Got it. Before that, I was writing for Business Week, but I've written for most publications. It I'll start off with my blogger, though October 2006 I was early to block blogging. The block was called Driven succeed. So is helping students figure out how to get internships and jobs, because that's because you have a right. And from there in early 2007 I read an article that was written 10 years before it was the Brain Called You, written by Tom Peters for the cover of Fast Company magazine 1997. And that inspired the next phase of my career around personal branding. Well, you have to be the chief marketing officer for the brand called you. At the end of the day, you know success is in your hands. Build Me Inc. And no one my age was talking about it. I was 22 at the time, and so I created personal branding block dot com and then, from there, personal branding magazine person reading everything. It was like an empire around personal rating in the early days, And that's how I built a lot of my digital relationships. And from there I wrote a book called Me to Point Now. So is the first book on how to use Social media to build your personal brand and is also like how to get your first job when you graduate using all these tools like Facebook and Twitter and everything, and from there I pivoted, and I started to think of Oh my God! So I know how Tiu have these skills I can go in two directions. I can either be in the marketing world, or I can use these marketing skills for a jar and help people be success from their careers and then create better workplace cultures by advising companies. And that's the root I went in because it felt right to me was my real calling. Yeah, and I was early. I felt like I discovered something before other people so I could really guide the next generation through their career path. Inside in the next book I wrote was promote yourself. So each book was, like, impossible for me to get. The 1st 1 was rejected by 70 out of 70 agents in two publishers. So I got on my own without an agent 70. You're going fast year. I'm gonna slowed him. Was rejected seven for by 70 out of 70 agents. Yeah, and the last one who rejected me was like, Oh, I'm thinking about taking you on, but I realized that you're a Red Sox fan on the Yankees fan, so I'm not taking you on. I just added a goal kick in the shins. I was so excited. I was waiting for the final response and then he sent that. I'm like, Oh, my God, But give me a break. But eventually got it on my own and January 2008. And it was very exciting because I didn't even know what it meant to have a book. You know, I was laughed at any time. I would go to conference and us an offer, you know? How do you get a book deal like, How do you make this happen? So I figured out amount did the book posing my own? No coaching. Didn't didn't know that they were consultants to hire back then. Yeah, and came out and before came out. I was given great advice by a man named David Merriman. Scotty wrote the new rules of marketing PR. He said publishers are not going to any work. It's all on you. Good luck. And so I just met as many people as I could. I didn't elaborate marketing campaign and the book did extremely well. And so after that, of course, you think Oh, getting another book deal is gonna be a piece of cake, right? Not for may I went. I fired two agents Well, and then one of my mentors, Penelope Trunk, said. You need nameless a agent if you're going to get a big book deal. And so instead of begging and Asian to represent me, what I did was I hired a consultant to interview all of the top agents in New York so that they would want May. So I got to choose my agent. Wow. And once I got that agent, it still was hard, you know, rejected by all these publishers barely got the book deal. I got one, finally, to say yes, after I conducted my first major research campaign, 45 studies. But the 1st 1 was with a company called identified dot com, and we analyze four million millennial Facebook profiles and that went viral that was on. Today's show is everywhere, and that was the signal to the publisher that, hey, we probably should work with Dan got. And then from there, the third book, I barely got the third book deal to even after that, that book, when you're times but celebrated his 30 and all these great accolades, right? And it was still hard. And so I think what this is done to me is It's like, don't take anything for granted. Nothing seemed to come easy, always work for it, and it's really leveled me off because I've gone through so many ups and downs through various phases of my career, not only writing the books but running businesses. And I think that is really helped me understand and appreciate what I've done and what could lie ahead. And then it prepares me for for Well, we're gonna go back into some of that cause you just covered probably 15 years and 20 years and lots of up and downs, and I'd like to get a little more detail, and I do. What I do love about the narrative that you opened with is that it's not what burn a Brown would call gold plated grit, which is like, Yeah, it was tough. And then here I am, on top of the world with my new book and everything is rosy because that's actually not reality, right? We all know that that, uh, the goal is to have an upward slope of your career. I don't have the Red Scott Belskis new books, great, but I just seem to go OK, it's great. It's a great, great book, the messy middle. And he's like the goal is to have an upward slope and just know that you're gonna have 100 ups and downs in the middle. And to me when I reflect back on your career, not just from what I know about on an from what you've just shared here. That that's that marker is there, as is true with basically everybody. So if you're at home thinking and you just got your first gigs that your designer, you just got this freelance design gig with Nike or you just got your first proposal for a research that except by Oracle or whatever and you think you've made it, Dan stories let then story be a lesson to you. You've made it for the next approximately four weeks, and I've come to realize one thing Chase is that it's a subtle art of patients with persistence. So I go after things so hard. But now, after having so many ups and downs, I take a step back and I'm willing to get rejected for even many years until something works out. Even when we both interview people like some of the people that I interview could take over six years to interview them. Well, it's like every year I just go back. I keep going back. I keep going back and it's less about you and more about timing. Yeah, and so a lot of people take it personally for me because I've done over 2000 interviews with some of the most successful people, the world like you. I've come to realize that that it's not about you. You're not rejecting you there just maybe rejecting your platform or they're not ready to promote something so they not only your platform to promote a product or service of them in general, Right? Let's go into that a little bit timing, because I do think it's a really interesting point that you made about most people over Index, that this is about me. I'm getting rejected, but give me a couple examples specific examples in your career where you thought it was you. But you came to find out two days, weeks, months or years later that was like, Oh, well, I went toe. I wanted to interview this person, but they weren't promoting anything. They were like on vacation with her family for a year. They were on sabbatical. Or give me a couple of examples. It's interesting because it doesn't exactly happen like that. They usually just say this is not gonna happen or they'll say after a few months that so and so doesn't have time to speak with you. And then I make a note, and then I reach back every six months just to check in to see if it's gonna happen. And and I'm so patient now. And I think the more wins you get, the more times you interviewed people. The more research studies you dio more patient, you become because what's another research study? What's another interview at that shirt? So that's the new psychology that I have, which makes me even more patient. And I think the most important thing and you this probably resonates with you, too, and many of the viewers is I want to do this for our Yeah, so what? What is waiting another five years to interview Oprah or 20 years like it doesn't matter, right, Because I'm gonna be doing this forever, so eventually it works out and I have to accept the outcome no matter what anyways, got it. So let's let's go back for just a second now and talk about like what you do. So for those folks at home, we've identified you as an author, obviously write great works. You talk about getting your first job at a school. The 2nd 1 the 2.0, is my understanding of how you described that book is This is how you go from individual contributor to a manager or a leader of the next phase in your sort of your work or your career and obviously the third book Back to Human. So but it in your more than just a writer. And this is one of the things that I think we have a lot of overlap and areas of curiosity and interest, in part because Creativelive is a learning company and we help people learn their passions. Whether that's for a career hobby or just life and lifestyle, you also have ah lot of background and helping people can act with learning on the world. You work about what you have learning officers, and the book is in some ways a reflection of that real work that the deep work that you do so give us a little descriptor or give me a little context for the folks. So from a research perspective, would you consider yourself a researcher? Like, What's your acronym? I mean, I call you an entrepreneur and off. So here's the best way to look a think a what do you most passionate relative to everything that you dio? Yes, I would say research first. I look at that as distribution of research. I look out of presentation is distribution of research, and I mixed in storytelling and examples. But for the most part, I love the research. You know what the need 45 studies in six years, if you hate research, doesn't want its night. So it's over 90,000 people interviewed in over 20 countries, right? And so for me, I realized that in this phase of my career, the big differentiator is my body, a pork. And so if I can point to all these research studies and everything I've learned through them, that really gives me an edge in the market. And because a lot of the biggest companies in the world like you know, the centuries, the Deloitte's, the big professional service firms. They have unlimited budgets. Yeah, they have massive research organizations. I'm a research person one, and I can do three studies at the same time because I've created a machine based on doing this so many times over seven years. And it's always exciting because I'm finding something new and give delivering to the marketplace. The reason why I love research is because when I was younger, no one took me seriously. And as a way to combat that, I pointed toe other people's research you don't believe may. Well, here's what a professor says. You don't believe me. Here's a study on this of 3000 people and then once I had the opportunity in 2012 to do my own study, I got hooked because I'm like, Oh my God, this is going to differentiate me. This is it. That's what I enjoy. I'm like an archaeologist trying to discover the next dinosaur boat, except you're dealing with humans except in doing with humans. And so I have a very good lens on it. And from a learning perspective, there's a whole chapter on learning. It's called practice share learning and the average relevancy of a learned skill is only five years. So in order to keep up with the changing demands of the marketplace, you have to rely on each other, loan from each other and support on learning development. So if you take a creative live course, hopefully you share that with your peers. Yeah, and that's good for your business. But it's also good for teams in order to keep up with all these changes because things were happening fast. And in order to support each other, we have to be ableto constantly share courses and and white papers and articles and books and podcasts. And so the more we get in the habit of sharing, especially if you're leader, other people will do that. And you're going to share learning culture. And everyone is supported together and especially with the big skills gap. We have millions of unfilled jobs in America, and that's just America. In order to fill those jobs in order for companies to better compete and grow at the right speed, we need everyone to participate in learning a development and make sure that we're all moving ahead together. Well, speaking of that, if you've heard this, the adage you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And it seems like, uh, you've done a very good job of spending a lot of quality time around some amazing humans. And I mean, you've made a really important statement, both overly and sort of embedded in your points about this took me a long time, right? This is not something that happened overnight. You didn't get toe interview fill in the blank superstar. Just knock on the door one day, and then you get let in the door. There's persistence and patience and all these things you've already talked about. But let's go back from your 0 to 1 moment where you hadn't done any research. You hadn't interviewed anybody, and you're trying to get the first person to say yes. See, I think this is the most powerful thing I called the rule of Warm. All you need is that one opportunity, and you can grow so much from that that one chance that one project that one study that one article, that one book? Yeah, you know, it's without a track record. It's hard to get opportunities, but once you have that one it is that I could just talk about the one thing you did which I interviewed people you never heard of before when I was 22 professors at, you know, Ivy League schools that you've never heard of. But I use those and I got those published. And then I interviewed more people and I just kept pointing to all of my work. And then I constantly was pitching, you know, magazines and online outlets. I went from starting my own blob to writing for Brand New Week magazine, which took six months, two Business Week, Toe Forbes and then I just spread out and was freelancing. And then all of that effort that I put in enabled me to get the content for the first book. It enabled me to refine my lighting style, and I'll tell you one thing, even with TV starting off in local TV. Incredibly valuable, because if you go from never being on TV to the Today, show you my flop and you'll never be asked back again and create keep a database. You are gone. So I'm so happy, even though I want to be a national TV from day one. Even though I wanted to write for, you know, like a major media outlets like the Harvard Business Review are the guardian of the Economist on day one. I'm happy I didn't because you don't want to mess those opportunities up. You're gonna hone your skills that you're prepared at the right time to be able to seize the opportunities and hit a grand slam that zey huge perspective building right there. It's like if you're at home right now thinking like, Oh, man, I just want to shoot for Nike tomorrow or oh, man, I just want to, you know, write for the Guardian or whatever you're the pinnacle of your industry is. Why do you think about that? Do you really want to do that? Tomorrow? How would you feel? I think the other thing with the creative chase is almost everything I've done. I've just started off doing for free. So for speaking, my speaking career was like this. I spoke at 30 colleges, didn't get paid, had to be my own expenses, and then one of the a girl who was ah, anyone in the audience of one of the college I spoke to. She got a job and they hired me for, I think, with $6500 plus a limo. So you go from going from zero and paying your expenses to limo messes you up a little bit. Yeah. What did I brought with Bank of what is going on here? This is crazy. But what I did waas, which most people probably wouldn't is I took that money and I literally handed it over to it speaking agency. So I gave him 30%. Without them having to do anything, I close the deal and everything. Now, why did I do that? I did that because I knew I wanted to be in a speaking role for the rest of my life. So what's 30%? That's nothing. And so I got represented and spilled multi six figure speaking career because of that one decision I made. And that's just one example. The research. First you studies I didn't get paid for. And now we're getting paid for so great. I'm how do you combat the phrase that people I started like, if you are not getting paid, then you're getting your suckered because then you're working for free What's your what's your point of view there? I mean, obviously, I'm kind of speaking tongue in cheek there, but I want to know what your explanation is, because there's someone who is listening. Right now we're watching, going like, um and I'm gonna like I only get paid from day one. So yeah, that I think what's important. It's if you've never done something before and you don't have a track record. An actual case study doing something for free makes it much easier to get the case study because you eliminate rest on the other party. Yeah, and honesty. Hiring people, As you know, from hiring hundreds of people hiring it's You want to eliminate risk. You're always thinking about eliminate risk, and how do you eliminate risk? You hire someone who's done it before you die? Hire someone who has done a project, and it's increased revenues or decrease costs. Isometric behind it. Yeah, there's something to show for it, and there last rescues. You're more likely to hire them. So hiring is all about eliminating rest based on the personality. What they're able to deliver their track record and so want to take that once you take the money off the table. It's easier to get the first few gigs, which is so important, because then if you do a great job, you'll just keep getting business forever. Yeah, so even if it's a short term sacrifice and long term success, I have a philosophy of free or full foot full price, because it to me it's the middle of someone says You got six grand to speak. Oh, I only have 500 go, OK, I'll do it for 500 then you're like they file you in the 500 bucket when they have another gig. They're not going to say I got grand. You know? I'm gonna call that $500 dude now they're gonna cost someone who was a $20,000 woman. Teoh, come speak. And that's who they want now, because that's what they wanted, something that's just out of reach. I find that, um, the free thing is very powerful, and you can build money, relationships and port or portfolio are sorry that the way I think about is money portfolio relationships, you know? Obviously try and walk away with two. Yeah, here's the other thing too. Yeah, I think you get to decide how you want to make money. And so for me, I have companies where I make money. And then all these other skills, like interviewing. I don't get paid for right. It takes it out completely. Have equation. Focus completely on the relationship. I could. My friends want me to open up a publishing company or PR book company could easily do that. Right. Abalos Scales don't do it. I'd rather just do it for free for people I believe in Because I use I choose to make money one way and then the other way I do it for free because I leverage that way in order to build the relationships that lead to other things that I hope to do in the future. I think that relationship but this might be a good catapult. We're gonna shoot right into the new book. So we talked the first minute of our our conversation here about connecting person and how meaningful it is. You just talked about relationships being catalyst to so many things that have basically been the successful levers in your career. Even meeting that woman in the audience and having her ultimately hire you for your she didn't know you're getting paid. Zero. She called and asked What? Your speaking fees that you know, whatever. You had a little negotiation and she's okay. Great. There's 6500 sent you a limo? That's amazing. But well, here we are, right? It's It's a world where technology is so easy is really hard to fly across the country. And But why don't I just like I'll just facetime Um, it's just the same. You chose to write a book about how that's not the case. Tell me why. So, two years ago, I was a TV for a documentary. It's called the Revolution Generation of Portrait of the Millennial Generation, and I was asked for 2.5 hours. What is the biggest challenge that generation faces? So, like, we've talked about student loan debt. 1. Children dollars in student loan debt outstanding in America. Huge issue here that just like $1.5 trillion more than credit card debt in our company. For those who are paying attention student loan debt, big deal, climate change, yes, World War. But then I thought in my head like What's if acting people on a daily basis and it's were all using technology were addicted to technology. And my my feeling is that technologies create the illusion of connection when in reality are over using this use of it has led to isolation and lonely loneliness and disengagement. Yeah, And what? What I found in the book is that this is a huge epidemic. It's happening all over the world. In Japan, 30,000 people die it every single year from loneliness in the U. K nine million people. Only 200,000 adults have been spoken a close friend or relative in the past month. We'll thes air to any stats. Here there's two passes. So how did 30 30,000 people die from loneliness per year? And how do they attribute that? That's like, Is it like from suicide and from living alone? Suicide? Yeah, well, combination. U K There's a minister of loneliness because it's an epidemic. Yeah, I heard about that. That's fast. And in the US, half of Americans were lonely and 40% lack meaningful relationships. So this is a really big issue and part of a study I did with Virgin pulls up over 2000 managers and employees and 10 countries was that half of the global workforce has five or fewer friends, and about 7% had zero friends at work. Yet in America, especially, were working 47 hours a week on average. In the UK, it's about 50 hours. And if if we spend so much time working, if 1/3 of my life is spent working, it's really important that we have good relationships with people who work with Yeah, because at the end of the day work is the work you do and you do it with. Yeah, so you're spending 10 hours a day. They're roughly based on your work week, and not having your phone is the new vacation. We're always rose kind of working right. We feel guilty if we're not picking the phone and predicted to the technology, because every time we leave in alert here on alert, we pick up a phone and we want that more and more and more like a slot machine because that the technology companies air purposely trying to get us addicted because it's their business model is our attention. And so every time we get an alert, it releases dopamine, which is, Ah, reward system. Yes, we want more and more. And that becomes a huge problem because if we're spending so much time of the technology, that means less face to face time. And what's really, really fascinating is the biggest thing that gets in the way of face to face. Communication in the workplace is email. Yet a study in the Harvard Business Review found that one face to face interaction is more successful than 30 40 miles. Exchange back and forth because you lack understanding if you do that, okay, so this is a great time for me to inject this question because we're having a discussion. Are is the millennial generation more apt to send an email and less apt to pick up the phone or see someone person? And have they been conditioned? Is this something that we owe that generation that your we owe them your book toe undo giving them technology too early, or have we culturally done this and what do we do to fix it? So here's what's really fascinating. What we want is different than how we actually behave. We want in person communication. We wanna work from a corporate office. Yet we spend 30% of approaching professional time on Facebook. And that doesn't include instagram email attacks. The scariest thing is teenagers. So teenagers, the first group that would rather text and have a face to face interaction. So this is all going ahead and they say that, Or did they do they actually mean that it is what they said, OK, and so that's a big deal, right? Because if you have multiple age groups and generations in the workplace like, there's gonna be a lot of conflicts because people are using different technologies to communicate and you have different preferences. So that's a lot of dysfunction that can happen there. Yeah, and so that's why I think it's more important now than ever before that we use technology as abridged human interaction, not a barrier. We let the technology, but a conference room for us. We let technology, you know, get, you know, set both of our calendars or a team's calendar so that everyone shows up with the right meeting at the right time. But once we're in that meeting, we should be present and focused on the people there. And everyone complains that meetings or an hour long And we hate meetings. Right? But part of that is because no one's paying attention. In meetings, people said an average of five texts. And during the meeting, the amount of data that you have is just like the stream just pounding. Getting today is right now. It's amazing. Just like processing like, Oh, my God. So I don't if you're willing to do this. I just decided that I would want to do this just for the show. I think I saw you had an IPhone. Yeah, old man, I'm wondering if you're willing to just quickly open it up and look at your screen time. Okay? Which is the technology with, um, no. Is it over there? Not nozzle Bring to you and just I just want to take a peek as I have a look in a long time. So what I was interested in was seeing, um okay, so I don't think I can see it because I haven't updated my phone. Oh, I got it. Okay. All right. So it's under. It's under. If you do, if you would have, it would be under you know, the little sprocket here under settings, and I'm down here screen time. Do you have enough to either the new Iowa's? Yeah, I get. So what? I will be the guinea pig, then. Okay, so over the last seven days, the average number of pickups, which is when I pick up my phone and look at it 69 per day. Yes. So the data says we check off on every 12 minutes and we tap our devices over 2600 times a day. You tap tap is like flicking number anything. So this is pickups 69 times per day. And my my biggest was on Tuesdays. My must pick up says between 100 and 10 pickups on average between Tuesday and Wednesday. So those are the busiest days in my calendar for trying to get all of you. Don't the other thing, though. Chases. I'm not saying that technology is bad. It's all about use cases. For instance, if one your teammates has to come to a meeting in a few minutes and you think they might have forgot senate text, that's perfectly OK, but if there's an office conflict, if you and someone else atanzi I texting is not going away, and I do see a lot of that from sort of a managing people perspective, like people try and resolve this via email and like, Whoa, just like right over there Go talkto And you know you shouldn't keep sending emails if you've gone back and forth and there's been nothing resolved or no action taken, that means it's broken. I mean, you need toe, just walk two feet and talk to the person. Yeah, and I think it's important to, especially we talked about, like, remote work. Everyone talks about the light side of remote work. OK, let's let's let's do this. Let's go to the dark side and you're going out. But I need to frame. This was talking about like that. I'm you know, of top within the book. I think this is really interesting the dark side of remote work because, you know, we've had people there sitting in the same chair that you're sitting in right now and just be pound the table remote work. And I think what I like is a blend. And I'm saying my preference before you just like, dices to pieces with your data Data data guy over here. Interview guy. So I I like a mix because I like I need some alone time to do deep writing, heavy, heavy thinking strategy. You know, there is either one or like myself in a room in a far away place. I just generally, in order to do this interview, I just came in from basically being in the woods, isolated, thinking about much of strategy, and I wanted to get down, so I got whiteboard, filled it up. And yet I really do crave human connection because I find it wildly efficient is much more so than text by and large, unless we're communicating about, like, small, useless piece of data. So you're about to uncork here, but everything you just said is actually how you're supposed to do it. Good research shows you need a due to blood. Okay, so I've done some a lot of research and why people want to be part of the gig economy and why they want remote work. And it's because they get the freedom and flexibility to work when, where and how they want. Yeah, and I think that's a great thing. Yeah, it lowers your commuting costs here, right? And so that freedom is something that's really important to it. Pretty much every worker between years of you know, 21 60. There's data that said, it's more important than money. Yeah, in compensation is worth money, but the dark side is that you could be very isolated and lonely if you're not getting human connection. Yeah, and the biggest finding this study is if you work remote, you're much less likely to want a long term for your company. So it affects team and organizational commitment. And to me, that's the ah ha moment. Because I'm working well for eight years to this very relevant. Yeah, and knowing that I had suffered from loneliness from not getting human connection of Okay, what can we do to make this work? So every Monday we have a call. We have the office. I'm constructing my schedule so that I'm doing personal related things and having meetings during the day. So everyone says and you probably do this. Do you like your calendar? You live and die by the calendar. It's not in your calendar doesn't exist. It's very hard for me. And because of that we have to arrange your calendar. So it's what in putting our personal and professional activities on there. And what we found in recent study with Kono's of 3000 workers and eight countries is that over 70% of workers I don't have enough time to be pushing related activities. So we have to be conscious of this. It's what most workers don't have time for personal stuff because they burned out there always working all the time. Yeah, sometimes will go like, freakishly long without a haircut. And then one day I get, like, a whoa dude, you like I find and in part because I love my work. But it's also like I call my gosh. I didn't make time to eat today these air like basic human functions that we forget to do because even if whether were engrossed in a good way or not, so good way we're tied up. So you're saying yes, that I just And I just think just with our clients, we work with the biggest companies in the world. And if we didn't have four meetings every year, over 100 come to each meeting, you're very senior people in HR. If we didn't see them, every baby got it wouldn't be our customers anymore. And I think about with my business partners if I didn't find and see them at least somewhat regularly. Yeah, I begun as a partner like So I think the in person is so important, and I've been thinking about this a lot recently. It's like, even if it costs you $30,000 to fly remote workers in for a day in your team building activities which we found is very effective. Yeah, that's nothing compared to replacing people. Cost at least $10,000. Replace each employee. Yeah, at the end of the day. So even one touch point of years can be so effective. Yeah, I signed it saying, Quote in the back of the book from Dan Pink. So you know, I like I like Dan's words. Yeah, so the rule technology prisoner lives and how are over lands on Gap gadgets is deepening isolation. So you talk. You listed a bunch of the isolation stats, But what would What would a person who thinks they prefer technology? I'll just use the millennial that you cited earlier. How would dance What would what would you and Dan say to this person? Says, Yeah, but I don't like Like I would prefer texting someone. And can you say definitively that you think you preferred, But it actually makes you sick and less productive. And Bligh's that what your research is trying to? Yeah, they haven't come to terms with it. This this five things that are really consistent in our world. We're born, we die, we pay taxes. Is 24 hours in the day. Yeah, we're not gonna get more hours in the day. And then as those higher give needs after a safety, security, food and shelter, we need love relationships otherwise will never be self actualized. So you're not. If you don't have deep relationships, no one when they're 90 is like, man, I wish I need more money. It's all about relationships. People have the longest of the ones of the best relationships. The people, the happiest, have the best relationships. Happiness is other people, right? And so if we know relationships are important and that we will, relations can go only so far using our devices. Then we have to leverage the devices in order to set up more in person situations that they're more sticking where better bonds are created. And so I think videoconferencing in terms of technology is great innovation. That one of the biggest innovations being using companies now. And I think at least that you get to see and hear someone is so much more valuable than just emailing and texting. Yeah, that's something. But I still think that an offsite a team building activity on an annual retreat or conference so important for me in people and I think it's on the remote worker toe actually put the time in to construct their schedule. So they're deliberately meeting people throughout the day, and it's all about social integration to We said We said it one more time because you said it fast. Listen up, like if you're a remote worker, it's up to who you need to be accountable to construct your own day. So you are having interactions, and that's probably at the end of the day of benefit for both you and your employer. Sounds like Exactly. And if you're a freelancer, I think I noticed this a lot, and I you know, if I get off the stage from somewhere or whatever. And there's a line of people that I I'm excited to talk to and excited to talk about, about whatever they just heard on the stage that a really consistent thing is isolation early. An entrepreneur creators career Because you're working so hard, you're super passionate about what you do. It takes a ton of effort, and you don't know anybody in industry cause you're just getting started. Extremely isolated. Yeah, and it's all on you if you fail. If you don't get clients, that affects your whole persona. Personality, everything. Yeah, your well being. So let's talk about for Lett's. Go away from the company and go to the individual. And let's get tactical for a second. So what are some tactics that individual entrepreneurs or creators, or let it squeak in there a little bit with the remote employees? But and just on a daily human human to human, not even around the workplace? What can we do? What are some tactics that someone who doesn't think they need it or it's not very good at it or hasn't really thought about this is a topic? What's the advice that you give them Yeah, If you're a freelancer, there are other people who would like you, find them and maybe work in the same coworking spaces them. That's what one of my friends did is like I feel very isolated, working from home, you know, one or two days a week, I have a few friends and we gather up and even though well working kind of in isolation on their own gigs, we have to help each other because we're next to each other and we can go to lunch together, even get coffee. This could be more social because they know that they're gonna be lacking that if they just work from home all the time. So it's on the person to set up the situations and find people who would like them to come together with. And some of our early research found that more and more freelancers are partnering now to take on bigger projects and because they fear isolation. Yeah, s. So I think that's a good thing, because we, no matter what happens, we have these basic human needs. And so we're looking to connect whether we admit to ourselves or not. And I think that if you're a freelancer. It is making the time to be with other people. Yeah, it is, you know, footing matching your skills, refreshing your scales, putting it on your calendar. It's about constructing your day so that you know you're having coffee with another creative freelancer that you are making time to be with friends. So, like it is on you within a big company. Yeah, the leader and the organization needs to help facilitate it, but happen organically. But as the individual, there's a lot of pressure on you to make that happen. Yeah, and over time, if you're not practicing your social skills, if you're not meeting with people, you become what? Awkward. If I don't see someone you know, a few days, it feels weird when I'm around people. Yeah, it's fascinating. We're social animals. There's no question about that. I mean, what is that? I think 20 Robbins is a really good job of reminding us that loneliness is is a huge You've already said an epidemic with disease and, um, and pain, and that even if you ever wondered if this is true or ah, it's just fiction were social animals. Clearly because if left alone. If we have food and water but we're not held as a child, you will not survive. That's fascinating to me and, um, in those staff. So I interviewed the U. S. Former U S surgeon general, and he said that the loneliness epidemic exists and that loneliness has the same health risk reduction of life as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So it's horrible for your health. And after the age of 25 you start losing friends more more regularly, and this away in the study did for the book and just my research. Bigger deal for men because manner less emotional, less vulnerable. So women as they age, they hold on to more relationships, whereas men don't. All right, good to know. I think I I sense that in in this popular culture, I'm thinking about my guy friends, and there's a sort of im north of 40. I'll say that, and now it's their conversations at the dinner table or the but the bar, the event, or whatever about connection in a way that I don't remember in the previous sort of 10 or 20 years of my professional and personal circles like and I think people are feeling it. It's interesting. That's why I'm optimistic to Yeah, that I'm just about to sort of turn that into a positive. To me, this is like, Well, we weren't talking about this before and it seems like we're starting. Is that part of you know why you wrote the book are absolutely It's the feeling that I have a feeling that other people have. That I talk to on a regular basis is everyone's looking for a support group. People feel isolated, especially in New York City. In New York City, on the subway, you'd be walking on the street. You could be in office. Yeah. You feel like you're around so many people yet no one at the same time. Yeah, because people are physically there, but not mentally, emotionally or spiritually. And over time that wears you down, you feel like you know you're around no one, and you feel very isolated and lonely. And that affects your health and well being, which therefore affects your productivity and success in the workplace. So everything is interrelated. Yeah. So we talked a little bit out individuals what they can do. It's on you to set up a schedule to join some coworking to reach out toe to, you know, other people who are like minded in your community and try and get together. What about if you're a leader in an organization, cause we just breeze through that pretty quickly like, let's get talked to me like I'm a leader, an organization and it's my responsibility to do what? Tell me it's about touchpoints. Okay, so one touch point is to recognize when you're employs so big. Former CEO and chairman of Yum Brands David Novak And so he would do something funny to recognize employees. He would give one a rubber chicken or chatterbox, right? And when he did that, they felt special. They laughed and it was in front of everyone. So they felt like they really accomplished something. And that human touch made a huge impact on those employees because they stayed with him longer. Chicken. Okay, check one. Shared learning. Like I was saying before, you know, if you can get people in your organization and your department to constantly share what they know with each other, enter just fostering multiple touch points. And is that something you set up like a like teach and learn or whatever, some sort of like a lunch and learn because us the GG program they have, we'll talk about that for a vote on a ton of employees who signed up to just teach other employees what they now for free. Because it just like I go over to Robbie's desk. Now it's full classes. Okay, Yeah, and I think that's so powerful because it shows that learning is important to the organization and that employees are empowered to actually stand in front of people and share something that would benefit more people on their team just across the organization. And so that's another touch point. And then I think overall, I have a whole chapter. Chapter nine is lead with empathy, which is very powerful, right? It's about you understand what people are coming from, and so many people suffer from mental health issues and might need some time to themselves. So it's about taking a step back, meeting them where they are and then giving them the freedom to take some time off so that they can come back healthier and ready toe make a difference. So in an organization that is small rag time of Google. So let's go to a small because it's a lot of people who are, like small design shop, a little photo studio or, um, we even think of your organization. Well, yeah. Okay. Just the small things really matter. Recognize someone? Yeah. Went above and beyond what they were with the creator of the month. We have, we have, ah, lunch and learn called 20 minutes a genius, which we've got to get the best people in the world to come through here and teach 10 million creators around the world. And we have a little special sessions where they teach to the creative life staff like you made you do. That is because it is about the culture. Yeah. People feel excited to come to work every day, and that's the before. Much better. And they won't leave after a year. That's the big issue. This is all associated with retention. Yeah. So if you have a highly engaged in social work force, they're going to stay long. Where saves you more money? Yeah, And hiring, as you know, takes time. If you look at across all size companies, the time to fill a position is so much longer than he ever Waas. People are slower to hire. And because of that, you know you really want Teoh. Hold on to who you already have. And the best way to do that is to create a culture where people feel like they there's trust. They have a sense of belonging. Yeah, they're happy. And this purpose behind it work. It was the four employee engagement factors. I love that. And do you know the book The Alliance by Reid Hoffman. Yes, great book, I read. Reason on the show is awesome. Awesome guy and I just love that that basically the book called The Alliance's a book that he and I think Ben cast not you wrote, which is about having a real relationship where you don't pretend like that you're not a human and that you are a computer and you can just work for, you know, 40 hours day staring interest, green tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick and that you actually have career goals. And this might not be. It's where we've lost the era where you come to work at one place and 40 years and retire with the gold watch. Always, the incentive is gone. Yeah, used to be pensions. Yeah, they used to be pensions and lots of things. So you can either pretend that still exists and run work. Leg had always been run. Or you could say, Let's talk about this. Like what? Your actual career goals, How long you want to stay here? What do you want to learn? What, where do you want to be? And how can I, as a manager or leader helped you achieve your goals? If you can come and do tours of duty, and it's really well planned and orchestrated and like, I just love that kid's parents, this can vary. Well, the Chapter one Chapter one is focused on fulfillment. Yes, and it's focused on your fulfillment as a leader. Before you even looked anyone else on your team. Right, because if you're not happy, if you don't have a sense of purpose if you're not excited, if you don't know where your organization or even your department or team is going, yeah, how are you supposed to inspire other people? So when you're at the fact that you're happy everywhere, who works for you is going to be excited because they look to your left. I look to you first. Yeah, and to me, it's so it's so powerful. I even thinking in my own race ships in my company because I'm so happy and fulfilled because I'm doing everything that I ever dreamed of and more. Yeah, but everyone thought was possible. Everyone else benefits from that. And so you need to get your stuff right first. That is so important. And then what I would do is I would meet with individual team members to figure them out like you just signed with Reid's book. It's like, What are you looking for? What are your goals? What are your aspirations? And how can I, as a leader, help get you there? Yeah. So once you're it's so much easier to help people if you're already excited and you're good. Yeah, and nine. What? I find that any relations for sure, and nine out of 10 times that I find when I have that conversation with the teammate earn employees or whatever, and it's like, Well, how does this what we're talking about? Is this map what you're talking about? No. Well, I kind of prefer more of this like Oh, cool. Well, here we can modify this and it's really important that we're lying is I'm saying, you know, hop on your left foot, You like. I hate my left foot on top of my right foot or whatever. The thing is that example, like that system really hard. You know, that's gonna create dissonance and what you want when everyone's different and have different needed different time periods. Because you're human life cycle. Like if one of your teammates is having a kid, they're going to need a different level of flexibility. You know, maternal, maybe paternal leave, right? But if it's another one is 23 years old, they're neither different. It just changes, right? So the younger you are, the more you want learning development opportunities. As you get older, you start to focus more on healthcare and retirement benefits with data. Yeah, exactly. So it depends on where they are. And then individually, you know, one might want to be the next CEO as another one is perfectly happy being an individual contributor. But you don't know that unless you ask those questions and I would push someone to ask those questions as early as possible and in person, right? These air the sleeves is an emotional conversation because a career is such a part of someone's identity. Yeah, because they're spending so much time at work. So if you're not having those critical conversations in person, then they're gonna feel less connected there. There needs might be met, and you might not even know that. Yeah. So you have entered that many shift gears for a second. You have shift. You have interviewed as you said, 2000 over 2000 over 2000. Okay. And I have been on the receiving end of those interviews for every single time. And yeah, it's a really interesting You've got a format. So rather than go to the format path, I'm interested in the human characters. So, uh, rather than individuals, you don't have to name the individual. The whole Coben store is great. Okay, Give me the whole Kogan. It's my favorite. Okay? Because it was my favorite interview ball time. Go there so early. Like, six years ago, when I was writing for Forbes, Forbes had a partnership with Yahoo. So some of the articles you wrote in Forbes will go on the home page of Yahoo, which back then was the number one place you could ever be on the over 40 million views. Particle. And so that was the interviewed Ryan Blair, who is a multi millionaire. And that article was on the home page of Yahoo and he called me. He's like, this is this article, like, changed my life and he's like, What can I do for you? I looked at his website and he had hoped Hogan is a spokesperson. Them like I'd love to go Kobe and I saw him when he rests under the Giant. When I think it was 66 years old in western Massachusetts and I love them, it's hope Hogan. He's like the most recognizable person ever. And so I got his cell phone number. I called them. He was, like by his his pool in Florida, and we just incredible. Hey, what's up? Down? And between that is the whole local radio here. I learned a really key interviews scale with him, which is establish a human connection to defuse the person being interviewed, meaning that he might, you know, because you know who I am. Maybe he's nervous. Maybe it's not. Maybe wasn't care. I don't know what was going through his head. But the second you establish that relationship telling him a story about when I was a kid, he told me things that anyone ask him. He told me things about his family and divorce, and I didn't say anything. That's not something I would even ask him. But he said it because he was comfortable because I told him a story in the beginning. E think that is really powerful when they feel like you're on their team. Yeah, of course, it matters what the objective of the interview is. If it's to extract information, O r. If it's to get someone talking extract, I mean, isn't like I need to know. Hey, you, what day did you were you on site when the when that places broke into or not? That's a different kind of interview, but I think that generally speaking, we're trying to help people share ideas, which obviously is what your book is about and what your interviews on the basis of, I found the same thing, like just some sort of connection in person and again, it keeps going back to the human aspect on, um so and it's easier like you interviewed me. This is much easier than if you've never met me before connecting me at some level, right? And I find that people live into multiple times like Richard Branson. You've been to you to have interviewed three times with my third interview was a piece of cake because I knew his contact Continent hero so well, yeah, and there's something to be said about really knowing the person in doing work and maybe reading their book or an article or other interviews they've done. I did Chris Andersen, the head cured of of Ted and I. This is my second interview with them. I look back at all his previous interviews over his career so that when I'm saying next to him, it's almost like I have known him for years. Yeah, and that that creates not only a good connection and respect for the pushing of interviewing, but you know what they asked them because, you know, it's already been asked, right? These these air interpersonal skills I want to get away from the person I want to go to content. What's something that was the most perhaps surprising thing that has come out of one of these 2000. I'll call them human connections that you have in interviewing all these folks. What would the last question, I always ask, What you have answered is, what's your best piece of career advice? And there's two people who answer to the same way very different people Writers, though. Michael Lewis okay, And Sapkota? Yes, and they both said they both have. The same thing. Is, is don't trust everyone's advice, right? Like I can't even give you the best career advice because, you know, even you know could be general but not fit your specific situation. So it's almost unfair to you. Yeah, and they were to out of over 2000 that said that. And they both caught me by surprise. Michael Lewis the first time. Easy is the 1st 1 Stay battle, right? Wow, that's interesting. From such a prolific writer in someone who probably you could learn a lot from Yeah, and then Seth Godin, who is also very well trusted in our world, man. Okay, that's interesting that he said it, but what's interesting is any time I ask that question. People usually pause for a second to think about it. And I think that with my format of five questions in under 10 minutes, it forces people to give their best content because because there's a limited time could have a diversity and inclusion, diversity and ideas. Diversity in humans. How do you think about that in in any organization? I think you need shared values to connect on a human level, informed a strong foundation with a person or team. Yeah, And then you need to have people come from different backgrounds to challenge you of beliefs and thoughts, because that's how everyone grows together. And so you know what's really interesting in the education space is we did a recent survey around the skills gap, and one of the things were, you know, you know, companies openness to hiring people without a four year college degree. Yeah, because they seem to figure the best by storm, right? Yeah, yeah, and it's over. 90% of employers open to hiring people without a four year college degree again, over 90% of employers are open to hiring people without a four year college degree, whereas a four year college degree and most HR systems that you would filter right out. Yeah, And now they're so desperate to Philippi this talent gap with these right technical skills that they're more open to it. The number before And you're gonna see more and more of that in the future. And these companies like apple, Facebook, Google, uh, Microsoft, like these air companies where you think they tech and technology and school and training. And and yet, if you can write great code or in the creative industries, we know if you can, Right? Great copy. Take great photos, shoot great films, like now, more than ever before That four year degree. Yeah, is it's a lot more negotiable than it ever has been. And diversity of the biggest talk right now on gender. Clearly that yes, and a big talk used in your everything. Diversity can be where you're from. It could be your upbringing. It could be what you look like. Diversity comes from all parts of life. Yeah, and I think that once we embrace that and we let people share their ideas. So, like, you know, if you create a safe environment where people feel comfortable being themselves. People want to bring your full self into the workplace. Yeah, whether you like it or not. Yeah, they don't want to be John the Worker versus John the mother, Your father, right? Like they just want to be them. And if we create a safe environment where people trust each other, they'll will build more than likely share ideas that could have a huge impact and feel respected so they'll stay longer and be happier. Yeah, I think that's the books broken down into three parts for I'm just looking at the table contents here. And I'm a big freak of organizations in structure like, I create structure in my life so I can have ah, ping Pong ball within that structure. That's my creative style. And this is just so the first parts self connection. 2nd 1 team connection and third is organizational. And this what I love about this. And we talked about this before the camera started rolling. Like I'm passionate about it because this applies to individuals. If you're a freelancer, small shops and you know, if you're a contributor in a big organization and we all like, if you're listening to this by and large Europe creator, entrepreneur or entrepreneurial and spirit. And, um, I just you frame that really, really Well, she didn't really consult me on this, so we should have. Yeah, but you nailed it. And so the chapter four, um, is on diverse ideas on diversity workplace that I think is powerful. Um, so we talked a little bit of a sheet, Especially now, because the younger generations of the most diverse generations of all time, this diversity is happening whether we like it or not. Like everyone says, Oh, you no fewer than 5% of the sea. Sweetest women, But naturally, over time, once we get you passed a lot of the unequal pay and everything that's happened for years. Eventually, it's just going to become more diverse, naturally, based on who's part of the population. Yeah, we also need to accelerate that not not ruling to rate around. Have it be natural force that we got a long way to go still. Um, thank last sort of line of questions. I'm wary of our time and wanted to say thanks for it in advance, but we talked a little bit about your humans that you've interviewed We talked a little bit about some ideas that were surprised. But there are. There are threads that when you've interviewed this many people and spent time with this many great companies, there are a few threads. So what are threads that you see it where greatness is exuded on individuals? What are some individual habits or anything? But we're in pursuit of here is helping people grow transform, and we don't have to do everything ourselves. We don't have to touch the stove to know it's hot. We can look at someone else. Touch the stones at that. Snow is probably hot because they burn themselves. You've gotten to interview 2000 people. What are some common traits from the people that you feel like really got it together? We'll do humans first and then cos second yeah, perseverance. You think that everyone goes through rejection? There's no success without failure, right? And so they're willing to take in the pain, work with it and override it. Yeah, and is it overriding, or is it moving through moving through? Or and they're willing, Teoh face fear. And even though they might still be fearful, they're willing to push against that and test the boundaries. They're willing to get rejected a lot. They put people for 70 agents, put people first, right. They understand that they need to form a team. You can't do it alone, and most of them talk about passion, right? And there's been a lot of talk about following your passion. They believe that they follow their passion, but maybe in many cases is they found out something that they were really good at, and that became their passion. Yeah, I think that's what I've read through the lines. Yeah, and then the other thing is they great mentors, right? And it's not, you know, everyone gets his whole meant anything wrong, like you just choose changed, like, Will you be my men? I get I get those Diem's every single I just we just met. We haven't even met, Really. I got you live in Ireland and I just got a d m from you. But so it's not like that, but okay, but it but mentorship is a key part of these people, these high performers, it's it's they do some of the work force to prove themselves improved that they're willing to hustle and put the work and time in. And then people are more willing to mentor them because they see potential in them. So you need to do the work first. You need to kind of prove yourself a little bit first. Yeah, and then people will help you. But don't think of this mentoring relationship as this person is like your slave for 50 years. It's more of hay like This is somebody who I can ask a question to you and I really need it. That's how Mark Cuban works. Yeah, and you work with a lot of investors. Do you really need it asking a favor? Totally. But I think that's the case for everything in general. Don't be the potion too closely. Take and take and take. That's the reason why I only write a book every 4 to 5 years. I'm ask for favors every 4 to 5 years, and then for the rest of the time I just want to be generous and help people. And I think to me that feels right toe other people. Maybe you create your own formula. But you know, I think these people as much as they think everyone thinks their self involved, and it's all about them. They realize that in order to be successful as an individual, you have tow, surround yourself with other people and be generous with your time, your money, your resource is yeah, fascinating to me that that's really important because that's how I've lived my life. And I think I think that is part of you know, what's inspired me through all these interviews is, Hey, it's not all about you. It's about other people. And when you serve for other people and produce for them, everything comes back anyways. Yeah, so everything you want to build is with other people. It's fascinating. I I have to concur with that. Just I was thinking about all you have done. Having done thousands would have certainly done hundreds, and it's that is so consistent. But the interviews are letting people use your platform teach. It's all these connection points and bring people into your community, and as a result of that, they now know you and they can take your brand elsewhere. Yeah, and they benefit. Professional is increasing. That win wins important, and I learned this with George Foreman CEO, he said. something really early. My curry is one of the first, like, really famous. We plan to be back in the day and he said that you have to create the win win situation. You can have one person benefiting more than the other person. Otherwise, it won't be a sustainable relationship. And that stuff by me too brilliant. So that's with people. Those were some of the the ah commonalities the threads that you've seen with successful folks that you've you've interviewed and that are featured in your book here, Back to human. What about companies? Brands? You full circle. We're gonna go back, toe you up. You opened in part today with, like, wow, brands are actually there There they have emotion connected, and there's almost like people where you want to connect with them and learn from them and participate with them. And so here we are, having worked now with a lot of different brands, and you're helping them guide their people strategy and learning and which brands not less not necessary. Which brands do it well because I don't want this to be about the brands. But what are the characteristics of those companies? Is the number one thing. So this is have studying workplace cultures for over a decade, okay? Feels like a family. That's it. That is the most important thing to create the best culture. Best company, the best place toe work. Yeah, it's you feel like you're part of something and you could be your true self at work and not be punished or made fun of because of it. And that, to me, is the most powerful thing that is, like, really back to human, right? It's like I can be myself on. I trust my leadership. I feel like I belong. I feel like I'm supported, you know, pays taken off the table because I'm being paid fairly. And I'm giving enough flexibility when I need it. Yeah, I'm gonna do my best. Yes, is gonna be great. I'm never gonna leave. Yeah, and that's where you get the high retention rates from Is when you're part of a family. Because it's much easier to leave a company with just a bunch of acquaintances than people who your friends best friends with and you feel like a family, right? So I think that's so powerful. And that's why there is that dark side of him at work. If you're not part of that, if you don't feel like you're part of that family, yeah, then you're disconnected and you will probably leave. That's why I love I interviewed a few years for the book, and what they do is they left the remote workers actually managed the meetings. They let them start and and orchestrate some of the meetings so that they feel like they're part of, like working from the headquarters at that point. Brilliant. So I think that's so smart is empowering the people who you don't even say. Bryant. All right, well, a congratulations on the book. The new book It's amazing be What's the best way for people to find and track you on the Internet, and we'll give you shouts out and whatnot. And where do you send people? Dan shabelle dot com So it's C h d a N s c h a w, b e l dot com. And then there's the podcast, which will be on soon. Five questions with Dan, Shabelle and Amazon wherever books are sold. Awesome. There you go, folks. Thank you so much for being on this show. Dan. Such a pleasure. We made it happen, Love. After a few years, folks, check it out. Really happy Teoh have the second signed copy I got from Dan. You heard it here first that I'm a second place signing off. Thanks again for being a show again, Dan, And we'll see you next week. Or maybe ideally tomorrow.